What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

[o_O.Q]

sc94597 said:

o_O.Q said:

"Socialism isn't merely about being "social" it's about having full compensation for all workers for the work they've completed."

1. and how do you achieve this without government involvement since you claim that government is violence and oppression?

 

"It's about destroying fundamental inequalities built into the norms of the system"

2. well.. people are fundamentally inequal... that's just a fact of life 

3. how do you plan to address the inequality that comes about as a result of the natural differences between people?

will there be great sports stars like lebron james in your world for example?

 

"It's about obtaining as much autonomy, power, and control over your work-life and conditions as is possible. "

4. you do that by being a capitalist and creating a business, not by tearing down the protections that we have in place for people to create businesses

 

". The only thing your employer brings into the equation which can't be brought by you and your peers is capital"

5. no not true at all, business owners have to come up with a competitive idea, a way to market that idea, ways to supply their customers, ways to compete against rival etc etc etc

you really believe for example that i can a server from mcdonalds, throw the CEO of a bridge and have that server run the whole company?

 

"Your employer reaps profits off your work which could've gone to you and your peers instead."

6. no... if your employer didn't have their business.. you wouldn't have a job

 

"Do you deny that capitalists make profits off their laborers?"

7. of course they do... that's their primary motivation generally for creating the business... otherwise they just wouldn't do it and you wouldn't be able to sit there on your computer and use the internet 

 

" All states eventually come to an end, and when they do who is going to foot the costs? Definitely not those at the top of the hierarchy. "

8. what is this suppose to mean exactly?

1. By eliminating the state privilege which makes exploitation possible. 

2. Sure, but not all inequalities are part of an individual's nature. To confound the two is to be intellectually lazy. That there are differences in the capabilities of people does not imply that certain differences in outcome aren't caused by external social structures. No socialist wants perfect equality in all things. Which is why I specifically spoke about norms "built into the system." 

3. Who said I'd want to address that inequality. If an inequality is due to the different natures of different individuals, there is no problem with that. The problem arises when the inequality is due to external social structures imposed on said individuals. 

4. Capitalist =|= "person who creates a business." The painting contractor who works alone is not a capitalist. The mom and pop who run their cornerstore are not capitalists. They are all artisans.  Capitalist = = "person who uses the privilege of capital to exploit the labor of others." I have no issues with artisan-work, but most work in a modern society is not artisan-work. It is divided and associated, because by dividing and associating labor productivity increases considerably. Why would I want to associate with a capitalist when I can associate with my peers  and therefore have more autonomy over my work-life? Well, because the state designs the system to make it hard for me to associate with my peers and not associate with a capitalist. 

5. Ideas aren't worth much without capital. Anyone can have an idea, and many people do. The question is whether or not they are able to enact that idea. Capitalists aren't special because they have ideas, they are special because they have capital. It's why venture capitalism is a thing, where the person with the ideas is not the capitalist, but is funded by the capitalist. 

6. Why exactly is that? Would the demand for goods and services that I and my peers provide disappear? Plenty of people had jobs and produced things before wage labor (employment) predominated in society. 

7. Do you think people can only make profits by exploiting others? Certainly, it's possible to create more value than was inputted without exploitation. Do you deny this? 

8. That when the state collapses on itself the people at the bottom are going to be the ones most burdened with the costs of the collapse. Is it not clear? 

 

"1. By eliminating the state privilege which makes exploitation possible. "

can you expand upon this? how does the state help for example a school yard bully to take money away from weaker children?

exploitation occurs because people are different regardless of whether there is a state or not

and funny enough a primary purpose of the state is to REDUCE exploitation... that's why we have police for example

 

"Sure, but not all inequalities are part of an individual's nature."

true

 

"Which is why I specifically spoke about norms "built into the system." "

such as?

 

"Who said I'd want to address that inequality. "

you speak of having workers take over businesses... the reality is that some people are just inherently better at setting up and running businesses than others that's how its relevant

 

"The painting contractor who works alone is not a capitalist. The mom and pop who run their cornerstore are not capitalists. They are all artisans."

the definition of capitalism : an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

according to the definition they are

 

"Capitalist = = "person who uses the privilege of capital to exploit the labor of others."

according to this definition everyone is a capitalist... you've used capital to furnish yourself with food, electronics, water etc gathered through the labour of others... so have i and so has everyone we know...

we call that trade

 

"It is divided and associated, because by dividing and associating labor productivity increases considerably. Why would I want to associate with a capitalist when I can associate with my peers  and therefore have more autonomy over my work-life?"

no one has a gun to your head... but if you want money from a business you have to offer something in return correct?

if you find that distasteful you are free to find your own way to make a living

 

" Ideas aren't worth much without capital. Anyone can have an idea, and many people do. The question is whether or not they are able to enact that idea."

true

 

" Capitalists aren't special because they have ideas, they are special because they have capital."

so... the only difference between steve jobs and you is that he has money?

never mind the fact that he didn't initially and worked his way up through building his business

 

"Why exactly is that? Would the demand for goods and services that I and my peers provide disappear? Plenty of people had jobs and produced things before wage labor (employment) predominated in society. "

how could you provide the goods and services from a business that does't exist? 

 

"Do you think people can only make profits by exploiting others? Certainly, it's possible to create more value than was inputted without exploitation. Do you deny this? "

what does this have to do with what i posted which to reiterate was that people create businesses generally to profit?

 

"hat when the state collapses on itself the people at the bottom are going to be the ones most burdened with the costs of the collapse. Is it not clear? "

in what way? your statement here is very vague