"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

[Peh]

WolfpackN64 said:

Peh said:

You should post a source where you quote that from, so I assume it's this one, arf: 

http://scepsis.net/eng/articles/id_5.php

I don't agree with him by defining atheists and theists alike, arf. 

"The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. " ,arf

Theism and atheism are not about knowledge on the existence of god, arf. They are theological positions on wether you believe in a God(s) or not, arf. I just place monotheism and polytheism into theism for the sake of the argument and for less writing, arf. These don't answer if God exists or not, can we agree on this, arf? Otherwise it's pointless to go on, arf.  

 

Sure. But it looks quite clear to me that a believer (Christian or otherwise) agrees to the existance of God (or gods). There might be some doubters who still see themselves as Christian, but that's a minor subcategory. They believe as we would state. An Atheist doesn't believe in God. An Agnostic is someone who doubts or who thinks we can't know if there is a God (and thus don't want to hold a position to the existance or non-existance) and thus does't believe and doesn't believe in not believing. Russel stated: "The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not." In the way he did because he himself is agnostic, so he states his position and views carefully.

I'm not going to go into the debate if God exists or not since I had that discussion many times over on VGChartz. Anyhow, we could clearly define Agnosticism as a middle position between believing in God and not-believing in God. Let's say Agnosts doubt about God (gods). The definition you gave from the Oxord dictionary, Russel's position and Wittgenstein's language philosophy support my claim.

I just took the time to think about how to make it clear to you and avoid ending in a discussion about semantics through out several pages with accomplishing nothing in the end, arf. 

Just to go back to the main issue... you claim that being agnostic is a third position besides atheism and theism in which I completely disagree and I also don't agree with your definition and source, arf. I already pointed out why I see your definition as an issue, arf. I also don't care what a believer says as long as it contradicts or is not in par with the official definition of the word, arf. I would even disagree with atheists alike if they use a definition which is not the official one, arf. All I do is use and defend the definition in the dictionary, arf. And so far, I can see that you are not using those, arf.

Just to sum up atheism/theism and agnosticism, arf:

Atheism/theism: No believe / believe in God ,arf
Agnosticism: No knowledge about God existence ,arf  

So, before trying to argue for my position again with my own words, I just link you several source about my position on this issue, arf. Maybe they can explain it better than I can, arf. 

https://www.thoughtco.com/atheist-vs-agnostic-whats-the-difference-248040 ,arf

"Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes clear that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god does not exhaust all of the possibilities." , arf. 

Or take it as a video, arf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vklm5NzW_3g ,arf

Even if someone calls himself an agnostic, arf. This doesn't answer the question if he believes in a god or not, arf. He only claims that his existence is unknowable, arf. Yet, he still has to answer the question: Do you believe in a God, arf? That's it, arf. It is binary, arf. 

Thus we also have agnostic theists, arf. The believe in God, but say that his existence is unknowable, arf. A belief doesn't require knowledge nor evidence, arf. Hence why it's a belief in the first place, arf. It requires faith, arf. 

 

 

Last edited by Peh - on 15 January 2018