2017 Year of Sexual Harassment

[o_O.Q]

Zkuq said:

o_O.Q said:

" Do you think taking the restrictions too far is necessary to fight harassment?"

1. i did not say that, i said that it can happen, how do you think dictators get into power? its generally through promising people security and using that as a means of stripping freedom away from people

the people of our era really need to become acquainted with a proper understanding of the past and human nature, because these things should be obvious, its why books like 1984 exist 

 

"Do you think the situation is too complex to be solved?"

2. to some degree yes, because the problem at the heart of this is human individuality - the different base drives and tendency to lean towards selfishness  across people

at one level of analysis we've already covered that fact that at different times under different situations people are willing to disregard the rules society places upon them.... does that not add a significant layer of complexity to the problem? then beyond that there are several other factors that i would think again should be obvious to people

 

"What makes you think we can't?"

3. at this point this conversation is veering off into some bizarre territory - you truly think we can train people to not be selfish and not defy rules?... good luck with that idea

 

""There are many occasions where people would like to be selfish and act for their own benefit, but we've managed to largely eliminate the related problems."

if that was the case crime and oppression would not exist"

" Your point is blatantly incorrect. If we didn't even try to fight crime"

4. wtf???? where in my post did i claim we don't or shouldn't try to fight crime?...  what i said is that your idea that we've largely managed to eliminate selfish impulses people have that cause harm to others is absurd... the continued existence of crime bears that out

 

"Good to hear, but you might want to consider learning how to express yourself better."

5. this coming from the guy constantly straw manning me is hilarious

 

"Your presentation so far as been extremely one-sided, and you must realize how it makes you seem. I've often seen people have opinions that are opposing to mine"

6. well all i can say here is that if you think that all discourse on a particular issue, must come at that issue from the same perspective then you both have a very narrow perspective on issues and you probably aren't likely to be the time type of person to solve complex issues anyway since your pov is going to be contrained

i know that you haven't explicitly stated the above, but its kind of clear that its how you're operating since, for example, you claimed that i must support sexual harassment in some way even though i did not say so - its the sign of someone with a constrained perspective unable to look at things from different angles

 

"but they're usually pretty quick to acknowledge even the opposing view even if they don't agree."

7. i've stated since the start that harassment is a problem and we should try to reduce it... wtf are you talking about?

 

"Do you still think they're equally common, and does that change your answer?"

8. well i think comparing the loss of life to something that in some cases is as innocuous as a rude comment is kind of silly... but regardless i have the same attitude about all crime... it must be combated in a rational way with care that we don't end up going too far over to the control end of the spectrum... i gave an example of this when i stated that we could eliminate murder if we kept everyone under surveillance 24/7... but who would want to live like that?

 

"It seems a lot of people don't even realize what harassment is."

9. i really don't have much to say on this... i think the education argument is to be frank a dumb argument

 

"By assuming such a stance, you essentially blame the victim for not being able to defend themself"

10. i've said this before in this thread and i'll say it again... ascribing blame over problems that arise over seeking viable solutions is the domain of an idiot

what the focus of dealing with these issues should be is solutions, solutions, solutions

i think if more women walked around with mace, a lot of the problems with physical violence perpetuated against women would decrease

do you understand why women in the middle east often have to be escorted by men? its because that society regards women as children unable to be independent and protect themselves... i thought the idea now is to acknowledge the autonomy of women? i mean even further down you state this :

"If more people are likely to intervene, it's going to make harassment harder and riskier."

11. by "people" here you pretty much mean men

anyway regardless i think that a focus on women taking more responsibility for their safety would result in better results than teaching people something that the vast majority of people who aren't mentally ill understood since they were very young

 

" but it does sounds like you're shifting the majority of responsibility to victims."

12. for taking care of themselves? absolutely... again, this is not the middle east and therefore we value personal autonomy

 

" our tone sounds almost exactly like victim shaming"

12. by stating that the primary person responsible for someone's safety and well being is themselves?.... well if that's victim shaming or blaming or whatever silly buzzword is being used at present then i guess the term fits me

 

"Can you see what your tone seems like to others?"

13. yeah i understand your perspective, and its important that you come to realise that its unrealistic... again, you cannot educate the drive for acting in selfish or self serving ways out of people and your whole solution to this problem is predicated on that idea

1. Uh, I'm probably but more wary of such things that most people. I don't even accept online surveillance, pretty much under any terms. There are bad and worse ways to do it, but no good ways. I'm perfectly well aware of what you're saying. If you're not saying the required restrictions would be too severe, so do you think we can make restrictions that aren't soo strict?

2. The majority of the problem is made up of very simple cases that are not at all complex. I'm not even interested in trying to tackle the really complex problems before the simple ones are solved. For example, you don't go grabbing someone's tits at work. It's obvious, and it should be obvious to everyone. There's no complexity about it at all.

3. Rules can pretty much always be enforced with varying degrees of success. There's no need to change human nature for that to be possible. I have no reason to believe rules about harassment couldn't be enforced in a way that would change the situation noticeably.

4. I said 'related problems', so you misinterpreted what I said.

5. Let me hear what my strawmans are if you can. At worst, there's misunderstandings, but I don't think there's been a single strawman from me yet.

6. Uh, what? That's not at all how I think. If anything, I strive to understand other points of view. Understanding other points of view, even when I don't agree with them, is one of the most important things in all human interaction in my opinion, and this is a thing most people don't ever seem to realize. I must admit I don't understand your point of view though, because it doesn't make much sense to me. You have some good points, but I don't understand how you can base your opinion so heavily on human nature. Also, I never claimed you support sexual harassment. I chose my words very carefully when I said what I said, and for a good reason - I specifically didn't want to make that accusation. Read again what I wrote.

7. What actions do you think we should take then?

8. I'm sure there's a term for what you're doing but unfortunately I don't know it. Anyway, your warning about going over-the-top with control seem, quite frankly, over-the-top to me. I don't think there's need to come up with any heavy restrictions here, and you haven't said so either, so why do you keep coming up with the idea about too much control and oppressive regimes? As good as a point it can be, as far as I can see, in this case you're exaggerating the risks.

9. I could ask for more about this, but I guess it's best if we agree to disagree.

10. Like I said, I agree about your point, I just think it's your tone that's the problem. The only solution to the harassment problem I've heard coming from you so far is victims defending themselves more effectively, but you've pretty much completely ignored the offenders and in fact shown some understanding towards them.

11. No, not really. It would probably be mostly men, but really any intervention is going to be helpful. If you know no one's going to intervene, it'll be so much easier to go one doing your things. But if you know you have to explain yourself to someone, it's already going to raise the bar slightly. If someone interrupts a harassment situation, it can be stressful for the harasser and it can make them think twice about doing it again. It also gives a clear signal that it's not accepted, unlike now where few people seem to make much noise about it.

12. The wild West was a wonderful thing, no? How about survival of the fittest? Ah, the pillars of civilization, everyone fighting for themself.

13. I was talking about your tone, and nothing else. You conveniently chose to change the subject despite seemingly addressing what I said.

If I'm getting anything from this discussion and especially this post, it's that you don't like reading very carefully, and that you either have only one solution that puts all responsibility on the victims, or you're especially talented at circling around the subject. I'd love to hear the other solutions if you have any and be proven wrong about that suspicion.

VGPolyglot said:

How is it a turn-off? Wouldn't you appreciate it if someone asked permission before doing something to you?

As far as I know, confidence is one of the most valued traits in this regard. I think you can see how asking can be problematic from that point of view. As far as I know, asking is also not a common thing in this regard. You don't ask 'do you want to kiss', and you don't ask 'do you want to have sex'. For the most part, you read it from what's happening. I'd say Chrizum is exaggerating the issue somewhat, but he has an excellent point.

 

" Like I said, I agree about your point, I just think it's your tone that's the problem. The only solution to the harassment problem I've heard coming from you so far is victims defending themselves more effectively, but you've pretty much completely ignored the offenders "

we already have laws in place to punish offenders after an incident has occurred... so i'm just going to draw the assumption that your "solution" primarily involves education and as i've said previously people disregard their education routinely to commit selfish acts

but let me not go too far with assuming but i'm curious... how exactly would this education work out? do you like gather all college age men together and sit them down and explain to them that they shouldn't go groping women without verbal consent? i'm just curious about how this would work out

 

"Let me hear what my strawmans are if you can"

here are a couple:

"" Your point is blatantly incorrect. If we didn't even try to fight crime""

"that you either have only one solution that puts all responsibility on the victims"

 

"and in fact shown some understanding towards them."

lol... well yeah i try to come at situations trying to be understanding no matter what the context is - that could be for a rapist, a murderer etc etc etc... because if you want to find a solution to a problem they cause you need to understand their perspective...

furthermore the potential to become those things also resides in you and me, i think a lot of people when confronted with these issues forget that last point because they are generally as they say looking for a chance to virtue signal, they don't really have the intent to understand or solve a problem, its simply an opportunity to get on a high horse and claim moral high ground

i mean i totally get why somebody would want to do that since you get the validation of others and all of that... but it doesn't actually solve problems

 

"Anyway, your warning about going over-the-top with control seem, quite frankly, over-the-top to me. I don't think there's need to come up with any heavy restrictions here, and you haven't said so either, so why do you keep coming up with the idea about too much control and oppressive regimes?"

yes i said that i personally don't see the need to apply measures that are too restrictive, but then again i'm not so stupid or dishonest to push the idea that harassment is something that can be stopped entirely, i also understand the importance of personal responsibility for safety... which now is being thrown aside as victim blaming

the main people agitating for change on issues like this dismiss both ideas and are actively trying to push for a utopia... and i've spoken to some of these people on this very site, to whom, for example, the idea that we can't really guarantee a completely safe society is intolerable

and if you aren't seeing examples of what i just described then i'd say you need to open your eyes

 

" The wild West was a wonderful thing, no? How about survival of the fittest? Ah, the pillars of civilization, everyone fighting for themself."

civilisation can be considered on both an individual and social level

on the social level we have laws to punish wrong doings and on the individual level we have the ability to take precautions and actions to secure ourselves

i would think it should be obvious that you want to cover both bases since everything cannot be solved at the social level - you don't hire a live-in dentist to brush your teeth for example

 

"but really any intervention is going to be helpful."

i agree, but i'd say that generally most people do intervene when they see a woman in danger

 

"that you either have only one solution that puts all responsibility on the victims"

wow... did you not read where i talked about the law? and how harassment is against the law? and i'm the one lacking reading comprehension? are you being serious right now?

 

"I'd love to hear the other solutions if you have any and be proven wrong about that suspicion."

i don't have any other solutions - to me its a combination of outlawing harmful behavior and individuals taking precautions to make themselves safer... neither solution (social and individual) is perfect and that is because we live in an imperfect world

your other suggested solution is to train people to not be selfish... and you think that's a viable solution