2017 Year of Sexual Harassment

[o_O.Q]

Zkuq said:

o_O.Q said:

" Most harassment happens in everyday interactions with people roughly on the same level "

1. i stated before that power imbalance is one factor in this issue... one as in one of several, i focused on this aspect because most of the cases we have been seeing have been with men in positions of power

 

" The realistic perspective here is that people pull off some stuff that should be prevented by common sense."

2. we wouldn't need laws and punishments if everyone abided by that kind of principle as i stated before

 

"Women are individuals like men"

3. we classify women as "women" because it is acknowledged that there are generalisations that can be made about them as a group... otherwise we couldn't ever make the classification

 

" Men with power get the most attention in these cases because they're well known but it doesn't mean harassment done by them makes up most of harassment overall"

4. that wasn't my argument, i'm not talking primarily about extremes here, but i would argue that women prefer a man that is at least at her level financially/socially and preferably above... and i do think that this drives a lot of the desire for success in men

 

"And I seriously hope you're not counting a woman as drawn to a man with power if that man is her boss, because most jobs have bosses, most people need a job, and thus women have a really hard time avoiding this kind of men with power, whether they want it or not."

5. that's one example yes... and as you alluded to here what can be done about that?

 

"You sound like a person who advocates common sense a lot, so why not now? Because it doesn't fit your agenda?"

6. believing that people could ever at all times behave in a way that aligns with "common sense" is not sensible... i've never claimed that i believe that people are entirely rational or could ever be entirely rational

7. that's to be honest one of the stupidest ideas i've ever heard and its usually derived from the idea that when we destroy religion completely everyone will be rational right away

8. and what is my agenda? 

1. I don't have much love for focusing on minor problems when there are bigger problems to worry about. I don't mean we should ignore smaller problems either, but your priorities here seem to be off by quite a bit.

2. Should we just stop caring about it then?

3. I don't really agree this generalization is correct enough to warrant this wide generalization. Also, in the large scale, this is an irrelevant detail - like I said, most harassment happens in situations where power is either an irrelevant factor or it can't be ignored (i.e. the boss at work is the harasser).

4. I don't think it's a factor in the vast majority of harassment cases, so there should be no need to highlight it. Again, we can discuss it, but you make it sound like it's a really big factor in harassment when it's probably not.

5. Are you implying that women are drawn to their (male) bosses because they have power? As to what can be done about it, having this discussion is a good first step as it increases consciousness about the situation.

6. So what do you think makes people harass others?

7. This seems almost completely unrelated but anyway, I haven't heard anyone make the claim you just said - and neither have I ever suggested anything even remotely closely to that idea, here or elsewhere.

8. I don't know, but you do seem to want to defend harassment for some reason. You don't seem to think anything can, or maybe even should, be done about the situation. I can't help thinking that you have, for some reason, some understanding for harassers. Perhaps someone you know is a harasser, and it doesn't seem like such a bad thing to you? Of course this is all speculation, but you do seem keen on not really doing anything to change the situation.

 

"I don't have much love for focusing on minor problems when there are bigger problems to worry about."

many people are claiming that this is the main issue at the heart of all oppression and that we should therefore topple all hierarchies and lock everyone to one class, look around you with open eyes and you will see it for yourself

 

"Should we just stop caring about it then?"

as i said we do not live in a perfect world and humans are themselves imperfect, i think that ultimately we have to make strike a balance between security and freedom, if we try to make things too secure we end up with hell and if we allow too much freedom the same applies

my concern is that people are starting to hold very very naive ideas about these types of situations and are starting to veer towards the security side too much

a utopia where no suffering happens is not possible

 

"So what do you think makes people harass others?"

i think our behavior generally falls into two categories - altruistic and selfish

some times we lean more one way and sometimes we lean more the other way

i think harassment occurs when people lean more towards the selfish end of the motivational spectrum - putting their needs above those of their victims

 

i think that's one aspect but there are other factors

 

"Are you implying that women are drawn to their (male) bosses because they have power?"

that happens in some situations occasionally yes

 

"I don't know, but you do seem to want to defend harassment for some reason"

where have i said that harassment is justifiable?

i think murder is a serious problem, what can we do to end murder completely? i personally don't know of any way besides constant surveillance of everyone at all times, does this mean that i think murder is justifiable? what a silly argument

 

" You don't seem to think anything can, or maybe even should, be done about the situation."

can you propose a solution to the problem of people putting their needs above those of others? i can't myself and i think i understand people very well

what solutions do you have in mind for this problem in general? the education argument?

 

"Perhaps someone you know is a harasser"

i don't know anyone that is a harasser and i have never been accused of harassment personally