| Trumpstyle said: Sony and Microsoft will be forced to use Nvidia in next-gen consoles because Amd gpus is just so bad compared to Nvidia. |
nVidia do not have APU's. It's a marketing term strictly limited to AMD.
nVidia does not have x86 SoC's as nVidia does not have an x86 license.
| Trumpstyle said:
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Benchmarks are not out yet, so it is to early to call anything just yet. I know your name is "Trumpstyle". - But you don't need to emulate Trump in every aspect. Evidence is a requirement you know.
Reserve Judgement untill legitimate benchmarks have been done by legitimate outlets.
Besides, GCN has shown to age extremely well once before, where initial released cards performed slower/equivalent to the nVidia counterparts, but 12 months later... Will soundly wipe the floor with the same nVidia parts.
Although, initial Vega FE+Power+Performance stats aren't looking great, but they aren't representative of the consumer products and benchmarks that we will receive.
| Trumpstyle said:
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Polaris is not in the Playstation 4 Pro and Xbox One X. - Those consoles are using older Graphics Core Next designs but have been "enhanced" to adopt some Polaris... And even Vega enhancements.
Polaris *is* shit. But that is only because it is badly priced. There is no such thing as a bad card, only a bad price.
If Vega is priced well, it will do well. Ryzen doesn't always soundly beat Intel at every turn, but it offers good performance at a good price... And AMD was rewarded for that with a massive uptick in sales.
As for Vega being worse than Polaris, that is a hilarious stretch of the imagination.
| Trumpstyle said: I still stand by this. Ps5 will have 4-6 ryzen cpu cores, a midrange nvidia gpu(whatever arhitecture comes after volta), 16gb gddr6 and 2 tb non-ssd drive. 2020 released time(will be using 7 nm Euv) 399$ and non backwards compatibility. |
I think by the time we are looking at next-gen, AMD might have finally done a sizable update to it's cat cores. If that happens, that is what next gen will use.
Otherwise they will use a reworked Zen+ core, likely with cutbacks to cache to reduce costs at the expense of performance.
Besides, by the time 2020 rolls around, the Ryzen we have today will be old news.
| Trumpstyle said: If Sony go amd gpu expect instead 2019 release date(will be using 7 nm non-Euv), 8 ryzen cpu cores, 8-9 teraflops navi gpu(might be polaris architecture if Navi is a disaster as Vega) but will be backwards compatibility. |
So what is it? 4-6 Ryzen cores or 8 Ryzen cores?
And Polaris in 2019? No way.
Vega will be pushed into more price points next year with it's refresh. Navi will be sprinkled on top.
Then... We might see the reorganization of the Radeon segment finally start to show itself and have it's next gen architecture from top to bottom in AMD's product stack.
| bananaking21 said: damn, that would be an impressive jump in hardware. so we are looking at at least 13-14 teraflops for next gen? |
Flops aren't everything.
But don't be surprised if single-precision floating point is higher than that.
| curl-6 said: What's the alternative though, if next gen doesn't use Ryzen? |
Likely a cost-reduced Zen+ with cutbacks to cache, possibly removing hyper-threading.
A 6-8 core Zen is still a fairly chunky amount of die area.
Unless of course AMD does a successor to it's tiny Cat cores. (Bobcat/Jaguar/Puma/Puma+)
AMD tried to scale Excavator downwards with Carizzo-L, with mixed results.
| Bofferbrauer2 said: Next consoles will most probably use Ryzen. There's just not much else to choose by then, the only other possibility is an ARM based chip |
Everyone was saying the same thing about the Xbox One X.
Ryzen as it is today is likely not going to be the CPU chosen for next gen. AMD will have released a successor by then.
| Bofferbrauer2 said: Will there ever be a DX 13? By the way Microsoft is handling DirectX right now 12.x versions seem sadly more likely. |
Partial updates to Direct X has always happened.
We had Direct X 7a, then 7.1... Then Direct X 8a, 8.1, 8.1a, 8.1b, 8.2... And so on and so on.
Direct X 13 will happen eventually.
| Bofferbrauer2 said: The Fury Nano couldn't hold those 1000W unless undervolted and with much better cooling, most of the time the cruise speed was actually more like 900-950 Mhz with most Fury nano cards out of the box |
It didn't need to? Vega isn't 1,000w anyway.
900-950mhz isn't that much of a reduction from 1050mhz either in retrospect, especially considering the 100w power reduction thanks to lower voltages due to better chip binning.
| Bofferbrauer2 said: RAM is expensive. Not just right now, but for a console manufacturer in general. There's a reason why the PS360 had such severely limited amounts of RAM. |
Moores law also applies to DRAM.
The Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 had such limited memory... Was because memory densities were limited.
Memory densities *are* increasing and will continue to increase even before next-gen launches.
| Bofferbrauer2 said: Only if RAM prices drop by a lot (like, 16GiB for less than or about 50$ on consumer market lot) will there be a real chance of more memory for the next next next gen consoles. I'm hoping for 32 GiB too by then (24 is an odd number in terms of RAM), but there's no guarantee an that just yet. |
It's not about price-drops. Consoles have a fixed budget for every piece of component.
It's about increasing densities for the same amount of chips for the same price.
24GB is also not an odd number. Scorpio uses 12GB, It means it will be 12 chips on a 384-bit bus.... Or 6x high density chips on a 192-but bus. 2020 is still years away remember, technology development isn't stopping between now and then.
Besides, 4k is being pushed into the mainstream, you need more Ram, it's that simple.
| Trumpstyle said: Sony and Microsoft aren't using bad GPUs, xbox one had a badly performing card. Ps4 was using cut-down radeon 7870, mid range gpu. Ps4 pro same, radeon 480 gpu. Those Gpus aren't bad, they are decent. Xbox one x gpu is probably superior than radeon 580 because of the bandwidth from the memory. You also make a bit confusing comments in this thread :) First you say Sony and microsoft uses bad GPU than you say ps5 will have 14 TF which is unrealistic unless they w8 for 5 nm(Don't think they will w8 that long). |
The base Xbox One and Playstation 4 were using older GPU designs, that were slightly modified. They were mid-range parts. Now they are low-end parts. They are not as impressive as the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3's performance was relative to a high-end PC on release that's for sure.
As for the bandwidth, the Xbox One X does have a caveat that may limit it's full bandwidth potential in some instances, it's crossbar controllers are not matched with the ROPs, which is the exact same issue we saw with the Radeon 7970... End result is, in some cases bandwidth can drop down to 218GB/s on the Xbox One X.
The Radeon 580 (Which I own...) can beat the Xbox One X's worst-case scenario soundly. It can also beat it in single precision, double precision and half precision floating point, geometry performance and so on.
With that said, the Radeon RX 580 is not a high-end GPU. It never was. It's a good 1440P performer.
| Trumpstyle said: Amd cpu (ryzen) and nvidia gpu works great on PC, there is no reason why it should not work on console.
I don't believe arm cpu+nvidia gpu as APU. The Cpu is just to weak for going an ARM. |
ARM can be competitive with x86. So that is a misnomer.
And the reason why having an AMD CPU + nVidia GPU is one of cost. They aren't all in one solutions.
| haxxiy said: Power consumption, though. Even the Xbox One X doesn't seem to consume more than ~160W and that's on a vapour chamber cooler and a $499 console. |
Vapour Chamber coolers can handle more than 160w. Lots more.
| Trumpstyle said: That's what I believe is realistic, but you can look at past gpu releases. For example Fury x was amds top GPU on 28 nm, that card is 8,6 TF. In 2016 with a new node jump(14 nm) midrange gpus can't match it. Ps4 pro GPU can't match it. Now Vega is Amds top gpu on 14 nm and it has about 13 TF. |
Flops aren't everything. You can have a GPU with less flops outperform a GPU with more flops.
Polaris gets fairly close though considering it's not a top-to-bottom Architectural overhaul from Fury.
What is impressive is that Polaris has HALF the memory bandwidth, 1792 less shaders, 112 less Texture Mapping Units and Half the Rops, 40-50% less compute...
And yet we are looking at performance differences in the range of 15-30%.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1868?vs=1720
That's the Fury X. What about the Nano with it's 50mhz clock reduction?
Radeon RX 580 does allot better.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1868?vs=1754
| Lafiel said: I wonder if we'll actually see APUs next gen or rather AMD Epyc/Threadripper style interconnected (CPU/GPU) modules, which each make much better use of a waver and hence can provide the processing power for a much better price. The difficulty here lies in the bandwith of the interconnection, which has to be potent enough to operate the construct like a single chip. |
APU's will still be the go-to due to cost.
So much easier having a single chip than multiple chips that require increased power delivery, PCB traces and so on and so forth.
| thismeintiel said: Is there a reason you keep saying Navi is coming in 2018? It is being reported now that it is coming out in 2019, which is the year I expect the PS5, or at least its announcement. If somehow it does hit 2018, it'll be very late 2018 and in very limited quantities. 2018 is when they are going to be focusing on the Vega 20 (which is being made in 7nm 14nm+, so maybe that will be better for the PS5), or whatever that will be called, now, and the Vega 64 Pro Duo. And since Vega was delayed, what makes you think Navi won't be? I guess keep the hope alive. |
Because of AMD's roadmaps. There are some fake roadmaps floating around, so stick to legitimate sources if you can.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11404/amd-updates-gpu-architecture-roadmap-after-navi-comes-next-gen
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10145/amd-unveils-gpu-architecture-roadmap-after-polaris-comes-vega
And the reason why Navi won't be delayed is simple.
AMD has more than one team. One team was responsible for Vega, another for Navi. Just because one team might be slightly slower out of the gate doesn't mean the next is.
nVidia has done the same thing in the past where one team was slower with one GPU release, the next team was on time, so you had a less than 12 month~ release gap between an entire product launch.
| thismeintiel said: The number of times you jump in power isn't as important as what you are getting inside that jump. The PS2 was theorectically 30x-40x the power of the PS1, with 12x the RAM. The PS3 was theorectically ~40x the power as the PS2, with ~14x the RAM. |
Don't forget either that power of a platform is more than just the increase in flops or the increase in Ram.
New graphics techniques can bring with it increases in efficiency and massive gains in graphics for the same "theoretical" performance ceiling.
| thismeintiel said: Manufacturing costs always lower over time, even if not greatly after the first year or two. Of course, at first, a lot of the cost is the manufacturer trying to make up for R&D costs. AMD is not going to ignore those costs for Sony or MS, either. |
Sure. They do. But there comes a point where you are better off overhauling your design.
You aren't going to get a Vega chip that is only going to cost $100 in 3 years time.
| Captain_Yuri said: So here is the benchmark provided by AMD for RX Vega. Remember that since this is a benchmark provided by AMD themselves, is this more or less the best case scenario at least for BF1: |
You might as well disregard any 1080P benchmarks for Vega. That isn't where the GPU will shine.
It will be like Fury where it will be at higher resolutions where that card will show it's capabilities.
| shikamaru317 said: There's a 30 fps difference between the Fury X on AMD's benchmark and the Fury X on Guru3D's benchmark though. |
Basically according to those benchmarks we can expect 20-30% increase in performance.
Considering that Vega is operating at a clockrate some 60% higher, those benchmarks leave allot to be desired in my opinion.
Either, AMD hasn't enabled the Draw Stream Binning Rasterizer and Drivers are not finalized... They are trolling us... Or there is some big bottlenecks in the design.
| OdinHades said: So barely faster than my 1080 which is already one year old? Bummer. Waiting for Volta. |
Asynchronous Compute should obliterate the Geforce 1080 though, which is what more modern games should start pushing.
Pricing seems to be falling around the Geforce 1070 level, which in my opinion is great bang-for-buck.
| fatslob-:O said: Should wait until 2021 to release new hardware ... (it's worthwhile to wait for Samsung to introduce their new transistor structure) You need more than just hardware to succeed ... |
I would prefer a 2021 release, but I think 2020 is likely the more realistic window that Sony and Microsoft will push for.
| fatslob-:O said: 16GB will be fine since we're still going to be stuck at 1080p (This time I don't even think it's going to be native, we're going to reconstruct to 1080p and still be stuck with 30FPS since everyones going to chase for the holy grail known as physically based global illumination) I think bandwidth is going to be an important bottleneck going into next generation so if it's a choice between 16GB (2TB/s bandwidth) vs 32GB (1TB/s), I'd very much choose the first option as a console hardware designer since procedural texturing might become viable by then |
I think the Xbox One X and Playstation Pro has removed the "struck at 1080P" scenario. 1440P with frame reconstruction techniques is the sweet spot for those consoles, next-gen should be more capable than that. Or at the very least, that is the consumer expectation.
Besides, just because you are rendering at 1440P - 2160P doesn't mean that 1080P users don't see any gains.
fatslob-:O said:
AMD APU is practically the only logical step for backwards compatibility because AMD GPUs have different enough hardware features and microcode to be incompatible Nvidia or Intel GPUs ... |
And Abstraction can only take you so far.
--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--
