Hiku said:
spemanig said:
My thing with the Hit fight is that nothing can really be done with an ability like that when it comes to choreography outside of the obvious. So Hit can time leap. How does Goku trump that? By being faster/being predictive. The end. Nothing else can be done there. Does Goku have to do anything innovative to achieve that? No, because the characters are too powerful for anything clever choreography wise to make sense.
It's why I couldn't get into the Zamasu fights. When I say "it's just skyboxing and ki blasts," the point is that boxing in the air doesn't present anything interesting to look at choreography wise. The reason punches and kicks on the ground are interesting is because the fighters are limited to maneuvers that are physically possible, only being embellished by what's not. Like you can watch the Goku v Krillin fight in DB, and actually teach two stuntmen most of the choreography and it would still be impressive. That doesn't exist in sky battles. Fighter's don't need to shift their weight to gain leverage and give a kick more power, or move in a smooth way, controlling there center of gravity, remaining fluid in motion, etc because none of that exists in the air. They don't even have to obey loose rules of aerodynamics, which would at least create a little bit of tension. The coolest thing that can be done is knocking people through buildings.
I hope the no-fly rule makes the fights more interesting, but that's just the biggest problem, not the only one. Characters still move at teleportation speeds. I also don't want to make it sound like there are no exceptions to these issues in Zuper, or like Dragonball is perfect in this regard. Oolong became irrelevant in Dragonball, not Z. Chiaouzu has the most interesting powers, but was useless in Dragonball. Even Bulma started petering off in later Dragonball. I also don't really mind the Saiyan Arc, even though it's the perfect example of the "barren wasteland" thing. It feels more like a not so great Dragonball arc than an offensively bad DBZ arc.
Also, I don't watch DB for the fights. The reason I focus on them here is because I hate the general understanding that Zuper handles action better than Dragonball. The story is a much bigger issue to me. At least I can see the appeal of Zuper fights. I like powerful dudes hitting each other too, even without the finess of cleverness. Gohan going SSJ2 and completeing his arc hyped me up too. I'm not souless. But the Saiyan dick riding the show did ever since it was introduced then, and how that's connected to literally every issue I have with the series now, is what really gets to me.
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I think more could have been done with Hit's ability. If we could have seen exactly what happened, they could have also shown how Hit could adapt to Goku's adaption to it, outside of just increasing the duration of his time leap. But Goku only said that it's "more difficult than it sounds" to adjust your tendencies like that, and they left it at that. We could have seen things like fenints from Goku that lead into counter hits instead of blocks, or a Jiu jitsu style approach where Goku uses the kinetic force of Hit's movements against him. They could have also introduced a drawback to Hit's ability, such as if he activates a time leap during one of his movements, the movement will be carried out during the time leap, and he has no ability to change its trajectory until he releases time. Etc.
As for skyboxing, I do think they can hold some merit over grounded battles, but I find this to usually not be taken advantage of in 1 v 1 fights.
During the 4-way Goku & Trunks vs Zamasu & Black fight, I liked the dynamic it brought to position shifting and angles for one particular scene.
Here's a rare 1v 1 example where I did enjoy that aspect of aerial combat:
During grounded combat you're a bit more limited to the use of dynamic camera angles, and in this case I thought it was aesthetically pleasing to watch them make use of clouds and a dynamic camera to hide their presence, and how their auras traced their movement.
But I feel that I prefer combat limited to the ground in almost every instance, with few exceptions.
So I hope they get this upcoming tournament right. It was also nice to see a few scenes taking place in other universes, to show what those characters are fighting for, and make their world feel a bit more alive by showing us the people in it. But it's still a far cry from the development supporting characters got in the original Dragonball.
I got into Dragonball for many reasons, and fights were one of them. Probably the biggest one, as I started with the DBZ anime (in Chinese), and then picked up the manga and read it from the start.
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My thing isn't necessarily that I want only ground combat, but that I want clear limitations to aerial combat so that they are more interesting. I get the camera angles thing, and I agree that there's a flashy coolness factor, but to me there's little awe because it's already so outside of the realm of possibility that they can do anything they want without restraint, meaning there's no use doing anything but what I've mentioned. The reason I like grounded characters is because it makes their aerial feats more amazing.
Goku gaining altitude with the power pole is cool specifically because he can't fly, so it's a clever use of the tools he does have to gain a competitive advantage/evening the playing field with his opponent. Same with the Nimbus. Maybe he can fly, but he can be knocked off of it, it can be destroyed, his movement is limited, etc. so Goku has to think more about what he's doing on even a basic level. In his fight with Roshi, he used his tail as a helicopter to hover in the air slowly. Against Picollo Jr, he Ki blasts with his feet. Against King P, he ki blasts the ground with his only working hand after his other limbs were taken out. Krillin inflated his body once to float to the ground more slowly.
And I'm sure there are plenty of other elements they could have used to keep aerial combat in without making every character fly. Imagine the Zamasu v Goku/Vegeta/Trunks fight, only the latter three couldn't fly, and used other techniques to suppliment. Maybe they adept at climbing/running up buildings, so they use that. Maybe they've become better at using ki blasts with their feet, so they use them in small bursts to sky jump. Maybe Vegeta never lost his tail and can hover/transform into Ozaru and change the dynamic that way. Maybe Trunks uses the Nimbus here. Already the fight becomes more interesting while still being aerial.
I'll always be open minded, but I truly feel like much of it is irreversable at this point.
