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thismeintiel said:

KLAMarine said:

What difference does it make in the bigger picture? Today, there are things Microsoft does that neither Sony nor Nintendo do that are good for the consumer. Whether they are new or not shouldn't matter: Sony was among the first to introduce backwards compatibility and today, PS4 cannot play PS3 games. What difference does it make that they were among the first? None from what I can see: PS4 still can't play physical PS3 games.

It matters because if someone isn't offering something good for gaming, and instead the opposite, then they don't need to be in the market.

So does PSNow mean Sony shouldn't be in the market? Does lack of backwards compatibility mean Sony shouldn't be in the market? No Steam-like refunds? No OPTIONAL EA Access? Selling broken-at-launch indie games at a full $60?

thismeintiel said:

KLAMarine said:

I get that YOU don't want it but what about the other PS4 owners who do? They're screwed and they're not being forced to subscribe to EA Access. It's OPTIONAL. Not for PS4 owners though: it's mandatory that they cannot sign up as Sony has ordered.

Contrast this to Microsoft that HAS allowed the OPTION.


Don't like it? Don't subscribe. It's not rocket science.

You say that with one service.  Then, Ubisoft does it.  Activision.  SE.  Focus.  Soon, every company has a service.  Sure, you can say its optional, but its only a matter of time before they start putting things behind that paywall when they think they don't have as many subscribers as they would like.  Like we have seen with DLC, it starts out small and with good intentions, then it balloons to where everyone is literally cutting content from the game to sell to you later.  I'm glad Sony nipped this one in the bud.

Extra content is already behind a paywall, subscription service or no subscription service.  

MORE OPTIONS is NEVER a bad thing to have. Hell, it might be cheaper in the long run: for 30 bucks a year, you can play numerous EA games that would have cost many times more than that if they were purchased alone. And if one feels they've had enough, they can just cancel...

But Sony said 'no' and some defended Sony cutting down on OPTIONS available to their customers.

thismeintiel said:

KLAMarine said:

Had plenty to do with MS: they had to greenlight it on their console. If not for that, Bethesda mods might have just been an idea stuffed inside Bethesda HQ. Sony initially didn't want Bethesda mods but maybe the pressure got to them... Sort of...

Competition is lovely isn't it?

Sony is fine with mods.  It's why they were the first one to allow them on their console.  UT3 supported user-genereated mods on the PS3, while MS didn't allow them on the 360. Sony's problem with Bethesda is that Bethesda didn't want to have any kind of quality control or filter on their mods.  Basically, let people do whatever they want, to hell with the repercussions to your console.  Epic was completely fine with this, but Bethesda, who likes to let modders fix their games for them, were not.  Bethesda is the one who bent to pressure, not Sony.

Guess MS was the one forced to allow them, huh?  Competition is lovely isn't it?

Yes and it's XBox 1 owners who benefit in these cases.

thismeintiel said:

KLAMarine said:

It's almost as if Microsoft are deserving of praise for competing with Valve's refund policy.

No, it's not their idea but it WAS their idea to compete with Valve. I think this is a first for a console maker.

Still, the fact remains, they had to adopt the standard Steam set.  If not, there wouldn't even be a shot at competing.

And now Microsoft is setting the example for hopefully Sony and Nintendo to follow unless of course you want to argue against such a refund policy? Hopefully some No Man's Sky customers will be able to get refunds?

thismeintiel said:

KLAMarine said:

Well where else would X1 games download to? Thin air?


You brought up the topic of emulation below.  So, why doesn't MS just make an official 360 emulator app to play them on?

I don't know why but hey... Some BC is better than no BC. Bring on more BC games Microsoft. That's very pro-consumer.

thismeintiel said:

KLAMarine said:

I don't give MS credit for the tech, I give MS credit for putting 4K blu-ray playback into a revision of their old X1 when Sony didn't bother for their premium, upgraded Pro.

It's surprising but then again, Sony sells 4K Blu-Ray players so perhaps that had something to do with it?..


Maybe.  Might be more the fact that they know the market is extremely niche at this point and want to make sure they can drop the prices of their console without taking any losses from now on.  Sure, it's a pure business decision, but it's a smart one.  Let's just say a 4K Bluray player only costs them $15 extra dollars to put in.  If they sell another 50M units, that's $750M they would have spent for a market that isn't worth that cost.  MS knows they aren't selling 50M more XBOs, so they aren't at risk of losing that much on sales.  Plus, they NEED something to put down as a bullet point.  Of course, it isn't helping them. 


What I got out of this was, out of the two, it was Microsoft that was willing to go the extra mile for its consumers, include a 4K BR player in the X1S, and then promote the X1S and lose $15 on every sale.

Microsoft, good on ya! Another pro-consumer move!

thismeintiel said:

KLAMarine said:

Honestly, I didn't even think about DVD vs Blu-Ray back then. I cared infinitely more about playing video games on these devices.

Of course.  But NOW, it's something worth pointing out, huh?

I don't care about 4K BR either honestly but there are people out there who do care (I generally don't just care about myself you know) hence why it's a positive in X1S's favor. For people who want it, it's there!

thismeintiel said:

KLAMarine said:

Well isn't competition a lovely thing? PS4 forced X1 to ditch its old policies and now Sony's pulling back and Microsoft's getting a few jabs in. Good on Microsoft for that: if not for them to land a few blows from time to time, who?

Jabs?  More like flailing and missing each time.  Maybe some Xbox fans think they hit

Some PS fans too apparently:

"I've owned every home console Sony has ever put out and still have them all set up in my entertainment center (If I could get my hands on a black dev-kit PSX my entertainment center would be as black as an emo's soul.) Sony has had some pretty abysmal policies with refunds, especially chargebacks (even when accidental.)

My only pleasant customer service experience with Sony is when I accidentally let my PS+ run out and it automatically renewed for 3 months. I called and explained that I was planning on finding a card online for one year at a reduced rate and I was refunded. Even then, though, I was only given the money refunded to my PS Wallet.

This entire generation has been kind of disappointing to be honest. On top of some of their anti-consumer policies it feels like Microsoft is killing it with customer satisfaction and implementing updates that fans ask for, which are things that Sony dominated last gen. I'm hoping that Xbox dominates sales for the next year or two so that Sony starts focusing on giving customers what they want and hopefully revisiting things like their refund and chargeback policies."

COKTOE said:
KLAMarine said:
  • EA Access
  • Bethesda mods
  • Steam-like refund policy
  • XBox Game Pass
  • Backwards compatibility
  • 4K Blu-Ray player

Horrible ideas! That backwards compatibility, I tell ya! Doesn't Microsoft know charging a fee to allow previous-gen titles to stream on your current-gen console is more consumer-friendly? And that completely-optional EA Access? Bah! EA Access "does not bring the kind of value ... customers" who can't be left to decide for themselves "have come to expect". Attempts at emulating Steam-like refunds? Giving people their money back for digital purchases is the definition of anti-consumer! It's in the dictionary! And a built-in 4K blu-ray player is so horribly ANTI-CONSUMER! Consumers WANT to buy a separate 4k blu-ray player for their 4k blu-ray player needs.


Well, I don't like MS as a whole, and am unlikely to ever buy an Xbox again, but those are undeniably all nice bullet-points for the brand. I like how well thought out the Scorpio looks to be as well. The last 2 or so years have seen a pretty decent shift in it's conduct towards it's existing, and potential customers.

Some big YouTubers too:

thismeintiel said:

Sony fans are probably some of the better ones at calling out their console maker of choice.  It's why they have gotten to where they are.  It's probably why we no longer have online passes, which I also criticized them for.  Why most posts, including my own, were sympathetic to people who hated that they switched to paid online. 

I'd say Nintendo fans are pretty good later on in the gen, after launch, especially if the console isn't performing the greatest.   During launch it seems they can do no wrong, but that's more understandable. 

But this gen has proven that Xbox fans are the worst at it.  Many were fully supporting the shitty policies of XBO.  It's probably why MS was so dickish about changing it.  "Hey, our fans still support us, we can go ahead with it. "  If it wasn't for the gaming market of large, the XBO would be a draconian system with maybe 10M sales right now.  And when it was rumored very early on that Sony may be going the same path, I already said I would be switching (back) to Nintendo if it were true.  Fortunately, that turned out to be completely false.

I'd advise against speaking about people in such broad terms there thismeintiel. You don't endear yourself to people this way. Often it's the opposite.

thismeintiel said:

I'm glad Sony nipped [EA Access] in the bud.

Screw the other PS4 owners who would have liked to sign up for this service, you're going to just defend Sony cutting down on OPTIONS available to PS4 owners all the while criticizing XBox fans for defending Microsoft policies:

thismeintiel said:

Xbox fans are the worst at it.  Many were fully supporting the shitty policies of XBO.  It's probably why MS was so dickish about changing it.  "Hey, our fans still support us, we can go ahead with it."

thismeintiel, here's a hand mirror.

Look into it and you should see a reflection.