mZuzek said:
Well you and I have different definitions of what is a puzzle. You're going by the "literal" definition, which I guess it what makes the most sense. What I'm going for, however, is a definition based on how it feels like to solve something, or to find a secret. The feeling of solving a puzzle is often very similar to the feeling of finding a secret or solving a riddle. I'll agree that riddles haven't really been that common in Zelda, but they appeared pretty often in Zelda 1 and are everywhere in Breath of the Wild. Every game in between that didn't have many, though most of them had at least a couple (even if they were usually so terrible it was hard to even call them riddles). Anyway, it's clear you don't like puzzles, at least not in Zelda. However, even if in your view they didn't exist since the beginning, that doesn't make them any less of a staple. They've been around since A Link to the Past (the first Zelda to be considered a timeless masterpiece, as 1 and 2 are widely considered quite dated today), and they're not going anywhere probably ever. And it's for good reason. And don't start complaining about bad puzzles that feel shoehorned. I'll agree that random block puzzles like some of those in Skyward Sword don't really add much, but that doesn't mean puzzles shouldn't be in Zelda - it just means that there is the occasional bad or uncreative puzzle, which is a shame. Thankfully, Zelda puzzles are usually very inventive and executed quite well, much unlike the combat, which in almost every game is extremely shallow and repetitive. |
...My definition is the definition. Solving puzzles feels nothing like finding secrets. Riddles are rare in Zelda games, but even if they weren't, they are still different. Puzzles are, in most scenarios, pace breaking busywork in an adventure game where the point is to do everything else. Secrets are the point of adventure games. When you see a cracked wall and you bomb it and you find a valuable item, that's the entire point of going on an adventure. To discover shit. Two completely different experiences. If a riddle is being used to help you discover a secret that you find in the world, give me a million riddles. If riddles are the key to traversing through an intruicate, puzzle-less dungeon laced with traps, difficult combat challenges, a labrinthine level design that's easy to get lost in, and some tention, give me a billion riddles. If a riddle is the key to solving yet another context-less puzzle in a Zelda game, leave it at the door where the puzzles should have been.
ALttP is not the first Zelda to be considered a timeless masterpiece - Zelda 1 is. You don't like it? Cool. It's still widely regarded as on of the greatest games of all time. It's not a Metroid - Super Metroid situation. It's a Super Mario Bros. - Super Mario World situation. Again, it was designed to be played with a guide. If you have a detailed map, the game is a simple game to get through and has aged just as well as ALttP. If you don't want to play it the way it was designed to be played, that's your fault.
I love puzzles. Just not in Zelda games. What they are is an intrusion on a series that wasn't designed with them and never needed them. I didn't say they were going anywhere, so pointing that out doesn't win you any debate point. I said they should, because that's what this thread is about. Naming a series you like and then saying a big thing that you would change. I would change the fact that there are an abundance of puzzles in every single major Zelda game since ALttP, because there shouldn't be.
I never said anything about the quality of puzzles in Zelda games. A few are bad, most are mediocre, but many are good. That doesn't mean they belong. My problem isn't that the puzzles aren't enjoyable in isolation. My problem is that they aren't being solved in isolation. They're being solved within the context of an action adventure and are at odds with that. In Zelda, they don't belong for the reasons I already explained in great detail.
If Zelda put all of its puzzle chops into a "The Witness-style" spin off series starring Zelda herself or something where the point isn't to explore a vast and dangerous world engaging in difficult combat, but to solve a ton of puzzles because her wisdom is being tested by the goddesses of Hyrule or something, I'd be totally down because that makes thematic sense and wouldn't be clashing with itself. The puzzles would probably be better too, because they wouldn't have to justify their existence in a setting where they clearly don't make sense by forcing context, environmental gimmicks, or complex combat challenges.
The Zelda series has had some of the best and most varied combat in any action game that isn't a hack-n-slash/souls game, but I'm not going to expect that someone who defines something by how it feels rather than what it is would appreciate the nuances of real time combat - Zelda or otherwise.
