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Profrektius on 23 February 2017
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specialk said:
Profrektius said:

Okay I don't even have to get into Goldeneye/Perfect Dark and how terribly those have aged. But the other ones are probably some of the better examples of games that hold up.

SMB3/World, can make a decent case, and I'd still argue that if you were to give 100 random gamers who never played Mario, those two and New Super Mario Bros. U, they would enjoy the new one more, and not just because of the better graphics. However, this would be more of a close call and it is evident 2D platformers have not advanced as much other genres have.

Chrono Trigger is the only JRPG that really holds up. It doesn't require grinding, it doesn't drag on, it doesn't have random encounters. It can definitely be as or more enjoyable than modern turn based RPGs for new gamers. While I don't know how well the whole genre of turn based RPGs hold up compared to ones without turn based combat to new gamers without preconcieved notions of what RPGs are, it's incredibly difficult to judge from my perspective, and would be an entirely difficult discussion.

Donkey Kong Country, will be less enjoyable than Tropical Freeze for a new gamer. Has very similar gameplay, while far less variety and less creative level design.

Ocarina of Time, will be less enjoyable than any new Zelda game for a new gamer.

Castlevania Symphony of the Night, makes a good case, but not because of how well it holds up but because these kind of games don't really get made anymore. Somewhat similar to Super Metroid. Still new gamers would enjoy games like Dust: An Elysian Tail, Ori and the Blind Forest and Guacamelee more than those said games, but that might be a lot down to the presentation rather than game design.

Either way TLDR:

The best 3D games do not hold up by todays standards. The best 2D games without archaic mechanics, and without faithful modern sequels do, because more of such games today are only made by indie studies that have trouble competing with the best 2D big budget games of the past.

I completely understand your line of reasoning but I think it places too much weight on the very first impressions of newer gamers.

Would a new gamer prefer Skyward Sword or Ocarina of Time? Maybe Skyward Sword at the very first glace since SS is very pretty and OOT looks dated. But check back in 30 minutes later. In the first few minutes of Ocarina you're already setting out to get a sword and shiled and dive into the first dungeon. 30 minutes into Skyward Sword, you're finding cats, learning how to slice sticks at different angles, and learning about Link's bond with his dumb bird.

As far as Mario goes, I'm pretty sure a lot of kids play and make Mario Maker levels. I still tend to see a lot of SMB3 and SMW levels though. Not only does the look and music from those games hold up extremely well, but they have a few different set of mechancis that allow for different things. The spinning propeller suit isn't inherently better than the cape or the raccoon suit. 

I also completely disagree with regards to the JRPG thing. I think that Final Fantasy 4-9 is categoryically better than Final Fantasy 15. Better characters. More engaging story. More engaging combat. More talented artists working on the game. Better music.

Skyward Sword does have a slow beginning. Still the combat in Ocarina of Time won't be that enjoyable anyway by todays standards anyway. So you would still have a better experience even with the poor start of Skyward Sword. Still compare it to Breath of the Wild, and Ocarina of time seems like a flash game in comparison.

Never got into FF games, and for me I can approach FF15 and enjoy it simply because of the world, atmosphere, and basically presentation. (Sure it's just graphics, but it's still enjoyable if even for that superficial reason). FF7 while might be a better experience if you stick with it, but I just couldn't. The game is too dated, and wasn't enjoyable to play anymore as someone who doesn't have the nostalgia for that. In the end I went away with a better experience from FF15 than from FF7.

And the reason I put so much emphasis on "new gamer" experience is because we having lived through all the bs of the industry have accepted certain game mechanics and design desicions tht are not actually good. They've just been accepted. If said game releases with some of those mechanics now it might get called out on it more often, so we are seeing a shift of game design. However, looking back at games, no one criticises those things in retrospect. They were accepted at the time, but it doesn't mean they were good. But a new gamer, wouldn't have those preconvieved notions, and wouldn't accept bs game design, and would be able to judge more objectively. I guess I am trying to highlight how much the industry has progressed and improved if in a slightly unorthodox way.