How are white people supposed to feel about their own race?

[Hedra42]

Hedra42 said:

Final-Fan said:

Ignoring that type of problem won't make it go away.  The more you talk about racism, the more racists get upset.  If everyone just shut up and treated each other equally, that would indeed solve the problem, but how are we supposed to stamp out injustices that no one is allowed to talk about? 

Why did you generalize nonwhites more than whites in the first paragraph?  Compare:  all whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing (not literally, but you get it), and many non-whites want to play the victim.  You did basically take it back in parentheses, but why say it like that in the first place? 

Bolded - a straight up example of the overanalysing mentioned in Shiken's post. It doesn't help.

It's true that talking about racism will not make racism and racial inequality go away. It's also true that ignoring it won't make it go away. But doing something positive that will unite all groups, will certainly go a long way into making that happen.

 

Hedra42 said:

RolStoppable said:

Hedra42 said:

Bolded - a straight up example of the overanalysing mentioned in Shiken's post. It doesn't help.

It's not an overanalysis. It's an observation of bias. Whether said bias is conscious or unconscious is unclear, but it's there. Why is it there in the first place? Maybe the person in question has concluded that whites are superior based on his own observations, or maybe it's a result of their upbringing and education.

Call it what you like, but it is still an example of overanalysis that can ignite and/or perpetuate hatred. See Shiken's response to Final-fan a couple of posts up from this. In fact, your entire first paragraph could be construed as overanalysis. It doesn't help deal with racism, and as Final-fan said, all talk does is upset racists.

Upsetting racists doesn't stop them from being racist. It can easily exacerbate the problem.

 

Final-Fan said:

RolStoppable said:

Shiken's response to Final-Fan didn't properly address what Final-Fan pointed out.

We actually agree on most things, where we differ is the perception of the Shiken/Final-Fan conversation. For Shiken it's easy to say that people shouldn't talk about racism anymore, because it's not going to be detrimental to white people, the group he identifies with. Also, I don't think that Final-Fan meant that upsetting racists is a bad thing, but that's something he should elaborate on himself, because there's not much of a point if we continue this discussion based on guesswork.

Hopefully my other post will clear up everything that Shiken misunderstood and make myself clearer to you, too, Hedra.  Upsetting racists is, all else being equal, undesirable (as is upsetting anyone).  However, when people expose racism in action, and especially when they take action to put a stop to it, racists becoming upset is going to be an unavoidable side effect.  It's very rare that society makes progress without having pushback from those who like things the way they are. 

(Let me be clear:  I am not saying that everyone who gets upset about these issues is racist.  But "all talk does is upset racists" is not what I meant at all.)

Final-Fan - my initial point in all of this was about how overanalysis just doesn't help the cause.

Shiken: "Unfortunately we are beings who over analyze every little thing to find SOMETHING to complain about. That in mind, racism will never end."

I had highlighted a paragraph in your response to that comment (which I have requoted at the top of this post here) as an example of just that kind of overanalysis, which subsequently sparked the debate between Rol and myself.

The misconceptions in the resulting discussion between you and Shiken pretty much demonstrate the negative effect overanalysis can have.

I stand by what I say -  upsetting racists will not stop them from being racist. Talking about racism, exposing racism, highlighting issues, putting in laws to improve racial equality and monitoring statistics are all well and good, and that's moving everything in the right direction on the surface. Yes, it will upset racists, but it won't stop them from being racist, nor will it guarantee against a racist backlash further down the line.

If you really want progress in society, racism has to be educated out of people, and I mean educated out of people from all sides, over a period of generations in a positive way. The change of heart has to come from all those people, and they need help and encouragement to be able to do that.