Biggest issue(s) with Sony for you

[JWeinCom]

Mike_L said:

JWeinCom said:

Games are going to have similarities, yes.  But there is a difference between creating a game that is similar, and doing a wholesale rip off.

And the examples you gave are absolutely ridiculous.

1: Let's take for example the Monkey Ball game and Wii Party.  Wii Party is based on the board game format that Nintendo had been using since Mario Party.  So it would be hard to argue that Nintendo took this idea from Sony.  Aside from the board game structure, the games don't seem very similar otherwise in the aesthetics, gameplay (they both use motion , but that's where it ends), or any other aspect. 

2: So we'll move on to Eye Toy Sports and Wii Sports.  Eye Toy Sports was a pretty different game as, so far as I can tell, it's not really trying to mimic the sports.  There are a collection of minigames that are vaguely similar to sports (for example the hockey game has you flailing your arms to block a series of flaming pucks).  Aside from the fact that they both use motion, they don't control very similarly, are not structured similarly, and have no visual or aural similarities. 

3: Eye Toy Kinetic and and Wii Fit are again only similar in the most superficial of ways.  They both have something to do with fitness, and they both have a motion controller.  You might have some sort of a point if Kinetic focussed on balance, used a scale as its primary controller, had the similar games to Wii Fit, tracked your weight, had similar graphics, or anything like that.  But it doesn't.  The two games are similar to the extent that Sonic and Mario are similar.

4: I actually haven't played Wii Play, and can't find many good clips of Eyetoy Play.  Maybe this one is a ripoff, but going by the quality of your other examples, I would doubt it.

5: And since we saved the most ridiculous example for last, let's go to the dancing games.  We Dance had nothing to do with Nintendo beyond Nintendo saying "sure whatever, you can make this game for the Wii".  If anything, it's a rip off of the DDR games on the Wii.  But hey, if you're trying to prove that Nordic games rips off other companies, then good job.  You sure showed me. 

The similarities you've given are basically "they're the same genre, and they both use motion controls".  Which is a pretty weak argument.  That's like if I did something like this...

Halo (button controlled shooting game) -> Uncharted (button controlled shooting game)

            

6: Which would obviously be pretty stupid.  Just because they are in the same genre and use the same style of control (comparitively, the controllers used in Wii Sports and Eyetoy Play are actually WAAAAAY more more distinct) doesn't mean one is a rip off of another.

On to the examples I gave... Let's take Sport Champions to start with.

7: Sports Champions was, like Wii Sports, a sports game that launched alongside a motion control solution.  The motion control solution Sony was offering just happened to be nearly identical to Nintendo's, right down to the nunchuck.  The game is structured the same way.  Of the five games they have, 3 of them had already been seen on either Wii Sports or Wii Sports resort.  Of those three games, 2 of them play nearly exactly the same as their Wii counterparts (frolf and archery).  One of them is similar but with rather unnecessary complexities added.  But, before I say that Sony completely ripped off Nintendo, let me at least give them credit for adding bocce to the mix.  Give the people what they want Sony!

8: Everybody Dance was a direct rip off of Just Dance.  The same structure, the same controls, the same aesthetics, same way they keep scores, same way they show you the moves, etc etc.  I was actually *shudder* working retail at the time, and we had the Just Dance 3 (I believe it was 3 at the time) demo running a few feet away from the Move demo.  Whenever the Move demo was running, we'd have little girls coming over to it saying "I wanna play Just Dance"! The game does absolutely nothing to distinguish itself.  

9: PSASBR took the overall gameplay style, control scheme, aesthetics, and most of the mechanics directly from Smash.  The way you input moves, the way characters fly after those moves are hit (which really serves no purpose in PSASBR...) , the platforming inspired stages (which doesn't make much sense considering how few of their characters have roots in 2D platform games) , the art style, and so on so forth.  They added two things to the mix really.  A combo system, and the way you KO people.  The second change is particularly weird as it takes a king of the hill style fighting game, and took out the king of the hill part.  They copied the game without understanding quite how it works.  And if they were going to rip off a 4 player fighting game, they could have at least ripped off Power Stone.  Which would have made more sense anyway.  

10: See, you wouldn't call Sonic the Hedgehog a ripoff of Mario just because they're both platformers that are controlled with buttons.  Sega wanted a mascot platformer to combat Mario, but they didn't simply take the mechanics and graphics of Mario and change the hero and some minor details.  They changed the structure of the game, the way it controls, the physics, the objective, and virtually all the mechanics.  Of course, they still have some similarities, because that is bound to happen.  

Ubisoft wanted to make a dancing game because of the popularity of Dance Dance Revolution.  But, the games, aside from both involving moving and dancing, share almost nothing else.

11: Nintendo wanted a motion control solution, but they didn't simply make the Nintendo Eye Toy.  They developed something that was completely different, and far better.  To call the Wii a copy of the Eye Toy, which you heavily imply, is simply stupid.  The experiences are not in the least bit the same.  On the other hand, the move is basically exactly the same as the Wii.

I only said that inspiration goes all ways. Easy now XD

 

1: Just because Wii Party has a board game hub doesn't change the fact that its gameplay consists of motion controlled party games just like Eyetoy Monkey Mania.

2: Huh? Eyetoy Play Sports and Wii Sports were exactly the same kinda game. Have you even played Eyetoy Play Sports?

3: Yes, Wii Fit was different in that it had a balance board but it's still 2 motion controlled exercise games. In my opinion, Nintendo again was clearly inspired by Eyetoy Kinetic and so what? It's not like you lose anything or that it degrades Nintendo in any way. And why the talk about Mario and Sonic? Sonic was a product of Sega being inspired by Mario. So you're saying that Wii Fit is a product of Nintendo being inspired of Eyetoy Kinetic.

4: Yes, and it really shows that you haven't played the games but as one who has, I can inform you that Eyetoy Play and Wii Play share a lot of similarities as well. I mean look at this and this. And you're saying my arguments are of poor quality :S

5: Why do you think I included Eyetoy Groove and We Dance. You implied that Everybody Dance was a case of Sony ripping off Just Dance. They were more likely inspired by themselves as Just Dance is from 2009 and Eyetoy Groove is from 2003.

6: You're the one using the word "rip off". I'm just trying to explain to you that inspiration goes all ways.

7: Yes, Sports Champions was heavily inspired by Wii Sports (that was inspired by Eyetoy Play Sports, although to a lesser extent). See, that wasn't so bad. I didn't lose anything.

8: Again, Eyetoy Groove released 6 years before Just Dance but I guess that doesn't count as we're certain that the only thing Sony is capable of is ripping off.

9: This is funny. Nintendo game is inspired by another game. "Oh, but it's totally different because of this (eg. the balance board)." PS game is inspired by another game. "Oh, but those additions don't mean anything. It's still a complete rip off."

10: Again, I'm not calling anything a rip off. You are XD

11: Again, funny how PS Move is a complete rip off of the Wii but the Wii is completely different from the Eyetoy with experiences that "are not in the least bit the same".

 

This is clearly a waste of time. If you want to live the rest of your life thinking that some companies never find inspiration among competitors, it's fine by me. But maybe you'll eventually be ready to accept that inspiration goes all ways. Just look at this analog stick showed to the public in August, 1995.

 

 

pokoko said:
Oh dear god, it's degenerated into the old "but they copy from other companies" argument, even though everyone does it. There are more annoying arguments in gaming but not many.

No, you're right. I took the "Sony only rip off Nintendo"-bait even though you’ve warned me against bait in the past.

I guess, I still have much to learn.

1.  No.  Aside from the fact that they involve minigames and movement, there is little similarity.  Nintendo had been doing board gamed style minigame collections since 1998.  They had a new system with motion controls.  Do you really think Nintendo needed Monkey Mania to put two and two together? Are you seriously trying to tell me that after making 8 games in that style, they weren't going to make another one that highlighted their new system's selling point, whether or not they took notice of an obscure eyetoy game?  Now, do you think PSASBR would have existed in anywhere near the form it took without Smash Bros?

2.  I've seen videos.  Aside from the fact that they both have sports, they don't seem that similar.  The way they control is completely different (compare how the bowling games control), and from what I've seen, you're playing small snippets of each game, rather than a whole game of the actual sport.  For example, you do a home run derby, instead of actually playing a game of baseball.

And here is a fun fact.  Eyetoy Sports was apparently a Europe only release, which I couldn't have played even if I wanted to without a modded console or something. When did it release?  November 2006... So, just about the same time as Wii Sports.  Funner fact, Wii Sports was revealed at E3 2005, about a year and a half before Eyetoy Sports play was released.  Even more funner fact, the first trailer of Eyetoy Sports was released at E3 2006.  So, unless I'm wrong on any of these points, it is literally impossible for Wii Sports to have been "inspired" by Eyetoy Play Sports.  If anything, Eyetoy Play Sports was inspired by Wii Sports.  This argument fails on every possible level.  So I stand by saying your examples were awful. 

3. No, you can't really say it's inspired by it. If the fact that they're in the same genre and both involve moving is a pretty weak argument.  When they control differently, look differently, feature different activities, and are different in nearly every regard, you can't make a strong case that one was inspired by the other.  You can think they are, but there's nothing to really indicate that the Wii Fit team had Kinetic in mind when making Wii Fit.  There's really nothing even to conclusively show they were aware of Eyetoy Kinetic.  Eyetoy Kinetic didn't exactly set the world on fire, and wasn't even released in Japan where the team was working.

I brought up Mario and Sonic specifically to illustrate the difference between a rip-off (which is what I complained about) and being inspired by (which is what you were talking about), so you would understand exactly what I was complaining about.  Nintendo is inspired by other companies all the time.  Xenoblade (and to a greater extent X) for instance clearly takes a lot of inspiration from western RPGs, but it used that to create a unique experience.  It looks like the same thing for Breath of the Wild, so far.  Nothing wrong with that.  If Nintendo released Skyrim with Link as the protagonist though, that would be different. My complaint was about rip offs.  If you're talking about something unrelated then I don't know why you bothered.

4.  I haven't played it or seen much of it, so I didn't address it.  Those two games are undoubtedly similar.  Are any of the other minigames in the two games also that similar?

5.  I really don't know why you included an obscure game like that.  What did We Dance add to this at all?  Claiming Just Dance was inspired by Eyetoy Groove is pretty ridiculous.  Sony clearly didn't inspire themselves since the mechanics and visuals of Everybody Dance were nothing like Eyetoy Groove, and nearly indistinguishable from Just Dance. 

6. I used the word rip off, because the examples I gave were rip-offs.  I never said I had a problem with games being inspired by other games. God of War was most likely influenced by Devil May Cry, but I didn't complain about that one, becasue they changed enough to make it a unique experience.  If you're inspired to make something unique and possibly better, fine.  If you don't change much about the experience, and call it your own, then that's a rip off.

7.  Not sure why you think I'm losing anything, whatever that means.  I gave my opinion, you challenged it, then I defended it.  Don't challenge my opinion and then act as though I'm doing something wrong for defending it.  I don't like rip-offs, and I'm perfectly entitled to take issue with it. 

8.  Yes, and Just Dance was a completely different game, with completely different mechanics, completely differnent visuals, etc.  Everybody Dance lifted all of its mechanics directly from Just Dance.  Can you explain how Just Dance is similar to Eyetoy Groove besides the fact that they were both dancing games?  

Besides the fact, Just Dance was quite clearly inspired by Dance Dance Revolution.  But, instead of just making a clone of that game, they actually made something distinct. 

9. Yes, duh.  When you make changes to the point where the games no longer play anything like one another, it's not a rip off.  Again, this is why I didn't take issue with games like Crash, or Jak, or Infamous, etc.  When the two games don't even use the same kind of controller, don't remotely look alike, and don't share really any activities, then it is ridiculous to say one was a rip off.  If you can explain the major changes that Sony made in the examples I gave then go for it. 

10.  Yes, I called it a rip off, and you were the one that replied to me.  I naturally assumed that your response was related to my post.  If you wanted to talk about something different, probably should have made a different topic.

11.  How are the Eyetoy and Wiimote similar aside from the fact that they both involve motion?  They don't use the same type of technology, they don't look similar, they don't function similarly, they can't really be used the play the same games, (try to put Skyward Sword or Red Steel onto the Eyetoy.  Even games like Wii Sports would have to go through major major revisions.)  and so on so forth.  On the other hand, the Move has a nearly identical form factor to the Wiimote and is nearly functionally identical. 

This is the difference that seems to be eluding you.  Something like "they both have motion controls" is too vague and broad to claim one is a rip off of another, or even that one inspired one another, especially considering that motion controls date back to the Atari and NES days.  When you're dealing with games or products that change virtually nothing, then that's a rip off. Compared to the similarities between Eyetoy Groove and Just Dance, the similarities between PSASBR and Smash are specific and staggering.  Some amount of similarity is inevitable.  At a certain point, it becomes shameless. 

As for the condescending paragraph at the end, I never said anything about companies never inspiring each other.  The examples you gave were just really shitty examples of this where connections were questionable at best and impossible at worst.  You're attributing an argument that I never made to me (aka strawman argument). If I complain about Sony making shameless rip-offs, and you're responding by talking about something completely different, then yes, this is a waste of time.

Oh, and noone was baiting you.  The topic asked what I didn't like about Sony, and I answered.  Notice that pretty much everyone else simply moved on past it.  You're the one who felt it necessary to respond.  And if you want to, that's fine, but don't respond to me, disagree with me, then act like I'm trying to start an argument.  You responded to me.