Society lets you go from an asshole to "truther" with one word

[binary solo]

pokoko said:

binary solo said:

What? Y'know women do generally avoid places where they think there's a higher than normal danger of being raped, so they are practicing common sense. But if course if you're expecting them to avoid all places where there is a non-zero chance of being raped then they will need to pretty much live in solitary confinement.

What most ignorant people say to rape victims is, "well you shouldn't have worn a skimpy dress", which is a total BS statement.

Most people who get stabbed in a bar aren't getting stabbed at random, there's usually some aggro between the stabber and the stabbee (both are being antagonistic) before the situation escalates into a stabbing.

Now if your second sentence was "She was at that seedy bar downtown was not wearing underware, sat on the bar spread her legs and said, hey boys who wants some of this, and got raped. She really needs to stop doing that." Then you might have something of a point.

Basically what your exampe boils down to is this statement "you shouldn't antagonise the one with the knife." exactly equals in common sense the statement "you shouldn't flirt with the one with a penis." Now that is plain nonsense.

And then of course there's the general attitude in society that violence, even killing, is an acceptable and reasonable response in some situations. So having a violent confrontation is often accepted as fitting within the norms of human social interaction. As far as I know in a normal society there is never a situation where forced, non-consensual sex is an acceptable and reasonable course of action that fits within the norms of social interaction. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

What?  Your victim blaming sickens me.  God, what the hell, dude?  Guy gets stabbed and it's his own fault?  Serves him right for wearing that hoodie, huh?  I bet he had some tattoos, that's the same as just asking for it.

Seriously, thank you for coming along and providing a real world example of people going out of their way to rationalize hypothetical situations two completely different ways, even to the point of making up their own details so that one is more negative and one is more positive.  You've twisted it until the guy deserved to be stabbed just because you wanted to.

And, wow, "you shouldn't antagonise the one with the knife"?  Because stabbings are never done when someone's back is turned?  

Here, though, I'll give you the conclusion of the example: the guy got stabbed because he was trying to stop the girl from being raped.  Still his own fault for messing with a person who had a concealed knife?  Still want to apply two different sets of logic?

Oh so now you want to put in some context? Why didn't you put that context in in the first place? Is it because it's easier to make simplistic statements to try to justify an invalid point?

Context is everything when shit goes down. There is a big difference between getting stabbed because you are trying to stop someone from being assaulted or raped in a seedy bar, and walking into a seedy bar telling someone their an asshole and get the hell out of my seat or I'll shove the stool up your arse and then getting stabbed. Can you see that in one situation you would receive a whole lot more sympathy and praise for your actions leading up to being stabbed than the other? Or do you think the situations are more or less the same?

How about the situation where you stab someone who is trying to assault another person? Is the stabee a victim of your hateful and malicious crime or are you righteously coming to the defence of another? Would it be OK if you saw someone being assaulted and instead of stabbing them you raped them? The societal norms would say that there are situations where violence that causes severe injury is acceptable and even praiseworthy. But there is never a situation where force sex is acceptable or praiseworthy. That's why the crime of rape does not have degrees of badness but only aggrivating factors, like whether there were other forms of assault involved, or if the victinm was a minor. Whereas assault and homocide have degrees and even exhoneration on the grounds of self defence or defence of others, because society recognises there are mitigating factors, and indeed sometimes the wounded (or dead) person is at fault.

So, a guy goes to a seedy bar and gets stabbed lacks sufficient information to be able to judge the situation as to whether he was a victim of a crime. A woman goes to a seedy bar and gets raped, you don't need any other information to judge the situation, she was raped, she is therefore the victim of a crime.

Also how many instances have you heard of where a seedy bar is known to be the site of a few rapes in the past and is frequented by single women? I'm thinking women who know the history of the bar are not ever going to that bar without tagging along with a big tough guy who they trust who has a knife of them. So in the real world women don't need to be told to avoid rapey bars, they just do. And if someone new comes to town and she says "hey, lets go to this bar." And you say, "no, don't go to that bar because people have been raped there." Are you expecting her to respond with "I'll go to that damned bar and no one better rape me, and I don't care what you say." Or is a more likely response, "Man, thanks for telling me, I'm never going there. You're cool, here's my number, call me some time."

And more seriously, if you warned a woman not to go to a rapey bar, and she went by herself and ended up being raped and you said to some people, "I told her not to go there, why would she go there after I told her it was a rapey bar?" that they would say you are an asshole victim blamer? No people would not say that. People would be surprised that she went there after being warned, but they would still say "doesn't mean she deserved it." At least that's how I would expect the conversation to go with everyone I know IRL, which includes several feminists. And everyone would certainly say she's taking a big and unnecessary risk if she went back to the same bar where she got recently raped.