Airaku said:
JWeinCom said:
I was only bringing up the biblical example to show a similar base concept between the two. The game really does seem to go into a new age way of thinking at the end of the game, but like you said. It came out of no where. Going with the "all is one" theory. Hence why it is considered canon (by BioWare), but I can see why some will disagree with it. I wouldn't go as far as calling them robots. The combination was supposed to show a peaceful species at the highest point of possible evolution. It's really weird, I know but it's supposed to be a perfect universal utopia where negativity no longer exists. Disagreements are gone, hate is gone. This is why, presumably, the synesthetic ending is the only one where the peace will last as peace will become permanent. The common misconception here is that people think that everyone loses their "individualism" in this ending. *sighs* No!, just no. xD
If it came out of nowhere, then it's hard to really argue that it is the main theme. It can't be considered canon by Bioware, because canon, by necessity, has to be official.
As for whether there would be peace or not, we don't really know. As I mentioned, even the Geth have wars among themselves. The only reason we have to believe there will be peace is that the starchild said so.
Shepard is both organic and synthetic. Not synthetic in the way of the Geth or EDI. Shepard is half machine with all those implants. They support Shepard and he/she will die if it is destroyed. So in the destroy ending actually kills Shepard. So you must be wondering why you she Shepard in the high War Asset destroy ending? I can't prove anything here but I assume it was part of the cut "indoctrination" ending. Which was a planned, and cut. We are taken back to moments before the citadel and see Shepard wheezing out a breathe on Earth. Shortly after Shepard get's his crew back on the Normandy and toward the Citadel. Harbinger gets a good show on your and you clearly see the laser go toward Shepard. Screen fades to white. From here... it's all fair game and shit gets really weird. Movement, and distorted vision should have been a first clear hint to players. Shortly after Harbinger blasts you.
Shepard was knocked unconcious, so you could argue that he was just groggy from that. But, there are a whole lot of things that just plain don't make sense unless you go with a dream sequence theory. Some of the holes were filled in with the extended cut, but I'd still say the indoctrination theory is a perfectly valid interpretation.
At any rate, Shepard living (which is made even more clear in the extended cut) signifies that the Starchild is not always right, or not only truthful. He says Shapard will die, and he doesn't. So, reason to doubt that.
Earlier we see Shepard in dream states with the child throughout the game. This is also from the indoctrination ending. ME2 had some codec entries that foreshadow this and outline it in the Indoctrination codec entry. I still don't understand to this day, why the ending where Shepard lives is still in the game. All it does is make people believe that the indoctrination theory is true, when it is not. It's been cut from the game. The scene serves no purpose and is contradictive and irrelevant to the ending the game shipped with. Maybe it remains as a nod, I don't know.
The scene was in both versions, and expanded on the second. So, I have to believe they left it there for a reason. The indoctrination theory does make a whole lot of sense. I don't know if I actually believe it, but it is a very valid interpretation.
I'm not sure if this is something I've mentioned before. But one of the thumb rules of gameplay design is to make the right path obvious to the player from the starting point. Meaning they can see the direction where they begin. The Synthesis ending, should it be unlocked for you. Set's straight a head of you. It is also the core of the Citadel/Catalyst. The Destroy and Control ending and left and right from you. Meaning the player needs to look and turn to go off the path. They are called "off sets" or optional paths. If we go strictly by a game design choice. The Synthesis ending is the canon in the designers eyes. Which is of course another thing that was pointed out to me. Unfortunately this is another reason on the pile of why I consider it to be the best choice.
Meh. I get what you're saying in most games, but I don't think that would apply to the ending, which is basically an interactive cutscene. It seemed more like a nod to the choice wheel than anything.
|
It came out of no where because it was off the top of my head. It was only a comparison. Nothing else. (Regarding the biblical comparison only). As for the Geth warring against themselves. I actually don't have an answer for that. The Heretics worshiped the "Old Machines", whom they saw as gods. That was the reason given for being the main enemies in Mass Effect 1. Much like the Inusannon's originally supposed to be the Protheans, a storyline which was dropped later in the series in favor for the other Protheans (The Inusannon's were changed to be the Protheans for the Protheans, they are the ones that the Protheans took their technology from). They also inhabited Ilos and you go their their ruins near the end of ME. I could be wrong here, but the change was to point that the Reapers were required to keep peace or dominate races like the Protheans would have complete control over the Galaxy. Off topic. Another ancient race that was supposed to play a more significant race and was forgotten in the sequels was the Thorian, who were basically ancient humans. I don't think they are related at all, but they are very similar.
I think the whole fact that you need high war assets to get the synthetic ending (brining people together is a major part of that and making peace). Is another hint toward my point. This is just my take. But again, it's a new age philosophy thing >.<
I agree with what you are saying about a lot of things not making sense. The whole just being groggy doesn't add up. Such as waking up in an area that happens to look very much where he/she was knocked out. By dream sequence theory, are you referring to indoctrination? Or more on the line of the death and find peace theory. As for the dreams Shepard had. That was part of the Indoctrination ending. Which was cut. Again, the ending was made just prior to release, most of the content was left in. Take it or leave it on that. As for the Indoctrination theory. Even though it's cut, and BioWare won't confirm or deny it publicly. One reason for this is because the official ending was meant to be interrupted in any way you want it to be, it's YOUR story. So in that sense, if you believe in the indoctrination theory, it remains true to that particular player. But in reality, no it's not, it's content that was unfinished and cut to meet the release date. Just like the Illusive Man fight and a few other things. Taking evidence from earlier in the game is what keeps the theory alive and well, even to this day.
I have no reason why it was in both version. The extended cut in my opinion, was terrible. It removed the sense of mystery and tarnished it a little. Most of the significant stuff was presented as still frames.... ugh. I didn't feel like it added much to the story nor the ending, a lot of people on the contrary enjoyed it.
I need to disagree about the ending. It is very basic game design choice. BioWare often makes the dialogue wheel (not always) have a paragon choice on the top, and renegade on the bottom. BioWare again, try's to present it clear. If BioWare wanted to red ending to be canon (in their eyes) They would have had the player directed to it, being the middle choice. Things would obviously, have been built differently with that in mind. If we were to take the rule of thumb. Red is renegade, and blue is paragon. Often you need to do more work for paragon (and on seldom occasions extreme renegade options). So Destroy is technically the bad ending. This is irrelevant either way because there is NO canon for Paragon or Renegade. This is why Shepard is excluded from the graphic novels, which are stated as essential to the canon, equal to the games. Back to my point. BioWare heavily implies direction in their level design. Trying to point where to go, in this sense. It is highly more likely than not to consider that BioWare was pointing out to the player that the Synthetic ending is the best ending. I don't see why it isn't when BioWare considers it to be. It's all in the eye of the beholder and it's your story, but they created the story and to them, that is the ending. Which is funny because it practically is contradictive in its on way. It's up to the player, but to the developers, their story is Syntheses. Hence why they don't flat out state it. Which is why it's so frustrating for me to explain it, especially with the destroy ending being the basic default ending for the lazy shoot em up gamers who run through the game just "killing shit". Which make's killing the Reapers make more sense to them. The majority of the players actually went with the destroy ending (pushing the polls from the forums aside). It's so one sided that it's ridiculous to even consider it a real ending. The control ending is practically admitting that the Illusive Man was right. I don't even understand why it's presented as a "blue" (suggestive paragon) ending, at least it's not genocide on a race. The only ending that is considered morally correct is unifying everything into one, retaining individualism, and tying up the whole "uniting the galaxy" theme. Something that was major. It becomes organics and synesthetic rather than organics vs synthetics. This is a HUGE difference. Ugh it's so frustrating >.<
|
It came out of no where because it was off the top of my head. It was only a comparison. Nothing else. (Regarding the biblical comparison only). As for the Geth warring against themselves. I actually don't have an answer for that. The Heretics worshiped the "Old Machines", whom they saw as gods. That was the reason given for being the main enemies in Mass Effect 1. Much like the Inusannon's originally supposed to be the Protheans, a storyline which was dropped later in the series in favor for the other Protheans (The Inusannon's were changed to be the Protheans for the Protheans, they are the ones that the Protheans took their technology from). They also inhabited Ilos and you go their their ruins near the end of ME. I could be wrong here, but the change was to point that the Reapers were required to keep peace or dominate races like the Protheans would have complete control over the Galaxy. Off topic. Another ancient race that was supposed to play a more significant race and was forgotten in the sequels was the Thorian, who were basically ancient humans. I don't think they are related at all, but they are very similar.
The point of the geth conflict was to show that true complete synthesis was not possible. Even with the hivemind, Geth eventually came to war with eachother like other species did.
If your interpretation cannot account for why there would be war among the Geth, then you need to rethink or abandon them. Your interpetation has to be consistent with the evidence.
I think the whole fact that you need high war assets to get the synthetic ending (brining people together is a major part of that and making peace). Is another hint toward my point. This is just my take. But again, it's a new age philosophy thing >.<
I already addressed this. You need 2800 EMS for the synthesis ending. The destroy ending with Shepard living requires 4000 EMS, and 5000 if Anderson gets shot. So, you need the highest number of war assets for the Shepard lives ending.
I agree with what you are saying about a lot of things not making sense. The whole just being groggy doesn't add up. Such as waking up in an area that happens to look very much where he/she was knocked out. By dream sequence theory, are you referring to indoctrination? Or more on the line of the death and find peace theory. As for the dreams Shepard had. That was part of the Indoctrination ending. Which was cut. Again, the ending was made just prior to release, most of the content was left in. Take it or leave it on that. As for the Indoctrination theory. Even though it's cut, and BioWare won't confirm or deny it publicly. One reason for this is because the official ending was meant to be interrupted in any way you want it to be, it's YOUR story. So in that sense, if you believe in the indoctrination theory, it remains true to that particular player. But in reality, no it's not, it's content that was unfinished and cut to meet the release date. Just like the Illusive Man fight and a few other things. Taking evidence from earlier in the game is what keeps the theory alive and well, even to this day.
It still doesn't matter what Bioware says. I have no way of knowing Bioware's inner thoughts on the game. If you are suggesting we can just ignore certain things that the developers don't like, then to make any interpretation of any form of media, you'd have to sit down with the author and ask "oh did this part really happen? Or this part?"
The evidence is there. You can't say the dream sequences didn't happen, because they simply did. You can't just pick and choose parts of the game. What happened happened.
I have no reason why it was in both version. The extended cut in my opinion, was terrible. It removed the sense of mystery and tarnished it a little. Most of the significant stuff was presented as still frames.... ugh. I didn't feel like it added much to the story nor the ending, a lot of people on the contrary enjoyed it.
The original ending wasn't mysterious in a good way... It was just half finished and shitty. For example, you see your squadmates die, and then they're just chilling on some planet. The indoctrination theory was actually the ONLY way to make sense of the original ending.
The new ending is still just as shitty, but it at least closes some of the plotholes, and gets the events to a point where they almost make sense.
I need to disagree about the ending. It is very basic game design choice. BioWare often makes the dialogue wheel (not always) have a paragon choice on the top, and renegade on the bottom. BioWare again, try's to present it clear.
Rotate the wheel 90 degrees to the left and it will line up perfectly. The blue paragon choice will be where it should be to the left. The renegade choice is to the right. The path shepard has to walk to each is exactly the shape as the arms leading to each choice in the dialogue wheel.
If BioWare wanted to red ending to be canon (in their eyes) They would have had the player directed to it, being the middle choice. Things would obviously, have been built differently with that in mind.
Except that the "true" ending is often the one that is the most convoluted and off the beaten path. See for example, Bravely Default, Shin Megami Tensei IV, Half Life, or Braid. All of these games make you take an incredibly drawn out and roundabout path to see their true endings.
And many developers reward you for not taking the obvious path. For example, Shigeru Miyamoto...
Iwata:
You wanted to define the "Essence of Mario".
Miyamoto:
That’s right. I wrote these things in an email, and I sent them to everyone that was involved,
even if they didn’t directly relate to that part of the development.
Iwata:
That’s an very interesting way to do things.
Miyamoto:
I wanted to take those fundamental elements that were created at that time, and place it in our game building process. For example, when Mario would always travel from left to right in a 2D Mario game. In one out of the ten times that you go left, you’ll find a little prize. Everybody usually would think that they are supposed to go to the right, but we wanted to reward those people that decided to travel and investigate the other side. So we tried implementing these fundamental things in every course in the game, but the team would lose balance if everyone did that, so I used my email to maintain coordination between the staff.
So, the most obvious path isn't the correct one.
Back to my point. BioWare heavily implies direction in their level design. Trying to point where to go, in this sense. It is highly more likely than not to consider that BioWare was pointing out to the player that the Synthetic ending is the best ending. I don't see why it isn't when BioWare considers it to be.
... We've already established that I do not believe your claims about Bioware. So, please stop bringing it up, because it's pointless. Unless you can show me some official comment from Bioware or evidence from the game that indicates this is the best ending, then you cannot show that it is.
