| Groundking said: 1) No, it's a false assumption, not a false claim, there's a difference, we simply do know know enough about how CO2 acts in an open system to claim that and increase in CO2 in the atmosphere leads to an increase in temperatures, there are simply too many other factors. It's what is assumed DUE to the closed system tests. This is critical thinking, something science prides itself on, well science minus all the environmentallist climate scientists that rabbit on about CO2. Personally I think it's LIKELY, but not certain, that CO2 does indeed lead to warmer temperatures, all I'm trying to say is that because one thing does XYZ in one system, it's not certain to do XYZ in the other system. Whilst this doesn't dispute the claimed effects of CO2 on the atmosphere, it does show that the use of fossil fuels as a driver of climate change due to CO2 emissions isn't a cut and dried as you thing, as that are lots and lots of different factors at play. 2) No they don't, in case you're wondering, I have got a degree in Environmental Science, and all the data shows that a temperature increase PRECEEDS an increase in CO2, I'm NOT saying that the increase in temperature causes the increase in CO2, I'm simply stating that temp increases preceed CO2 increases. There is nothing wrong in saying that.
Callion et al. 2003 (This is the first study showing this, there has been plenty since. 3) No, and that's fine, but you at least hope that the models can have some accuracy in back testing, yet they simply have none, and constantly overpredict everything that happens. You simply can't trust the climate models, and I really don't want to discredit the scientists who made them, as it's an awfully difficult job and they're horrendously complicated, but they're really really shit. 4) But what if doing something to be 'better safe than sorry' causes MORE harm than doing nothing 5) OK that's fine, but do you think, especially with all the negativity surrounding the current levels of foreign aid given, that the populaces of the developed world are going to vote for people who want to give more money to the developing world. Though I do agree we need to help the developing world in general, but they have to help themselves, we can only suggest what to do, but eliminating trade tarrifs would be a great start. 6) No what I'm trying to say, is that is CO2 REALLY the primary driver of climate change, when it's not even a particualrily big componant of not just greenhouse gasses (water vapour is the biggest at 97% IIRC, though that number could be wrong, it's been a while since I looked at it), let alone all the other aspects of what makes the climate the temperature it is. |
1) Well yeah there's always the possibility that an unknow variable will play a role and mitigate CO2 effect. But we know whats is the effects of co2 alone and we know that it will cause global warming. Hoping for another factor that will mitigate the effect when we do not know what it will be or if it actualy exist is little like playing lottery and hoping to win. That's something we should not do with our planet. Not to mention there's the possibility of factors that will accentuate the effects.
2) Well like someone else pointed out this graphics have no data higher than 300ppm and we are far beyond this point. But still this graph shows a strong correlation between co2 and temperature with only few anomalies.
3) Actualy they are way more precise than this. This argument is only supported by nickpicking models or parts of them that were innacurate but averall, models are way more accurate than this and underpredict more than they overpredict results.
http://www.wunderground.com/climate/facts/models_are_reliable.asp
4) Now you're the one being alarmist. What if not? In one scenario with act and cause harm but we would be able to take action to mitigate those effects. In another scenario we do nothing until it's to late and we will not be able to do anything about it. In the end, sooner we act and the smoother those actions can be applied.
5)We kind of agree on this.
6) CO2 is the primary factor we have a direct impact on. We do know exactly how co2 act. what is left unknows are the others factors that will mitigate or accentuate the effects of it. see #1.
