| JWeinCom said: First and foremost. I will apologise for taking a day to reply. I was at a seminar last night and I will not go into details on this. After all I would be called a liar. Again, why do I care? Allow me to say, I do not care at all about where you were last night. I don't know why you brought it up, or why you think I care enough to question it. Why you feel the need to make a point that you were at a seminar is beyond me. To deflect criticism, you're trying to portray it like I'm just calling you out on everything you said, but I'm not. Only on claims that have a direct bearing on the theme of Mass Effect. So, stop it with the childish whining. On the subject of lying. Personally it is the most insulting thing a person can say to me. Then... you know... stop lying maybe? I have no idea why you're so intent on proving to me that you are not lying, but your wonky explanations and ridiculous assertions aren't helping you. Yet, you claim to be insulted that I hold doubts for you. Yes, because I've not given any reason to suggest that I am lying. When you accused me of lying, I showed evidence that I was not. And, it would be a classy move to acknowledge that evidence and admit you were wrong to challenge me. Just saying. I stated that you had an "inferiority complex" based on the assumption of the way you are stating your words to me, and how you seem to be quite argumentive in general from what I've observed. Just as you call me a liar through a basic assumption. I assumed by the fact you consistently call me a liar and my reluctance to admit to it, you were hinting at the idea that I was a pathological liar. I do not see you admitting to your faults. Allow me to clear up this misconception... I am absolutely argumentative. Which has nothing to do with an inferiority complex. Feel free to show me any evidence that this is usually a sign of that. As for why I am talking to you the way I am, it is because I don't have much tolerance for dishonesty or being insulted. It is also a big pet peeve of mine when people make claims without evidence. This is going to sound like a dick thing to say, and I'm sure it is, but, I cannot fake respect or feign politeness. At this point, I do not feel the need to grant you any more respect than is mandated by the forum rules. It it makes you happy, you can consider that a fault that I have admitted. But why should I need to admit to any faults? Is this a group therapy session? Whatever my faults are, they have no bearing on the theme of Mass Effect. Your honesty however, directly relates to this topic, because you claim to have special informaiton about the game. And I'm calling you a liar because you've lied on a number of points. Talking to people at Bioware, presenting public information as if it was insider info, calling me a jackass and claiming it's not an insult (if you insist it's not, then I'll just call you a jackass tthe rest of this conversation) that I'm dodging questions, that I would never see you bragging, and that I'm not providing evidence. Perhaps I should be using the word assumption more in context while speaking to you. I continue to go off topic, because you continue to do the same. After all. Even you stated that this conversation should be directly related to Mass Effect 3. Lol. EVERYTHING I've said has been a direct response to you. I have not been introducing new topics to this conversation. And, whenever I ignore your irrelevant drivel, you accuse me of "dodging" questions. So, if this is off topic, it is entirely your fault. Regarding to the leaks online. About a year ago a website know as AGB released a very lengthy detailed outline in the shape of a press release regarding Mass Effect Andromeda. It is far more in-depth than the links you provided me. They also leaked Dragon Age Inquisition well in advance. I would suggest looking on that site, they do not have a search function and you'll need to hit the back button a lot. Easily a hundred times. I'm not going through that effort for you after the tones that I find quite disrespectful. The information is indeed out there. I can also tell you right now that the person who leaked DA is no longer at the Edmonton studios and is now at Bioware Montreal. That is the studio who is now helming the next chapter in the Mass Effect series, while the main studios in Edmonton is working hard on the new IP. Thank god that the leaker is gone. If this leak is information that I could find myself through the website, then why did you present it as proof that you were telling the truth? Why did you tell to print the screen and that "evidence may come later but better late than never"? You presented it as information that you personally obtained. Which is yet another lie. And, btw, it took me about two seconds to find the link to the AGB leak. Don't have a search engine? You know google exists right? Both that and the Dragon Age Inquisition link came from surveys that were issued to people outside of the company. There was no "leaker" within the company. The traits of a pathological liar include. The most telltale sign is the commitment to the lie. Any rational truthful person would by this point just have thought "oh this guy doesn't believe me. Oh well." Yet despite my constantly telling you "either drop it or prove it and I won't say anything about it", instead you just keep piling on more and more. "Oh it was actually at least 8 people. And I spoke to so and so at a convention. Oh and I could confirm this comment... and that comment, oh and I know the movements of each worker at Bioware." Why would any rational person KEEP making these claims when I OBVIOUSLY don't believe them. What is to be gained? So you don't want to be called a liar? Let me show you how! It's really simple, and I've told you how about 10 different times. It's a simple three step process. Before you say anything else, ask yourself these basic questions. 1. Is this related to Mass Effect or the issue of an author's authority? 2. Can I actually demonstrate that this is true? 3. Am I willing to provide the evidence that shows this is true? If the answer to any of these questions is "no" then just don't say it. If you follow these steps, I can guarantee that I will never ever call you a liar. And, if you follow steps 2 and 3 I can nearly guarantee that NOONE will EVER call you a liar. It's soooooo simple. I fully admit that I did the above. I could also alter the number to 8 right now. Unfortunately I do not consider saying hello as a sufficient reason. I also do not count the 4 guys I met at an Expo one time. Really? Want me to go to 12? Blasphemy! So yes. I could have raised that number again without lying. But it would have been dishonest in a way that would be a great deal to myself. I am disappointed enough to raise the number. For example the conversation with Trent, who went on to form Beamdog, said next to nothing about the Mass Effect series. He was very focused on the Baluder's Gate franchise and, if I remember right, Neverwinter Nights. Beamdog remains committed to spiritually continuing the Baulder's Gate series. So yes, it was "deceptive" of me to add him to the number. I figure, what the hell. It was more dishonesty, than a lie, as communication with a Bioware founder who's been there since the beginning is true. I twisted the meaning as a double meaning. Communication on Mass Effect was deceptive. Indeed I have had conversations regarding Mass Effect and it's development. I have very good reasons for being hesitant for going into details in these matters. This should be blantly obvious to you and yes I have been dodging the reason as to why, I will continue to do so. You said that you talked to "precisely" 7 people at Bioware about Mass Effect's theme. So, increasing the number above 8, or including anyone that you didn't talk to about Mass Effect would in fact be a lie. If you have such a low standard of integrity that you don't see what you've been doing as lying, then fine. I really don't care how you rationalize your dishonesty. "I was deceptive and dishonest, but I did not lie". Lol. Ok Bill Clinton. All I care about is that you stop making the claim. Can you prove it to me? If not, I don't care what the reason is. Just drop it entirely. . Infact the story isn't even there, only a base guideline which supports the intentional theme of the original vision and message the developers wish to convey to the audience. In this case, what I stated about theme from a developer point of view is correct. I still stand by this claim and will continue to do so until you prove me wrong in such a manner. No, that is not how it works at all. Someone who is so scientific should understand this. When YOU make a claim it is YOUR job to justify it. When I said I had a master's degree, you doubted me. And, while it was a dick move in a social context, you were absolutely correct to doubt me from a debate standpoint. This was MY claim, so if I expect you to believe it, it was MY job to justify it. And I did. I didn't say "I stand by the fact that I have a Master's Degree and will continue to do so until you prove me wrong in such a manner." Nor have I done this for any other claims. Now, YOU are making a claim, so I will hold YOU to the same standards you held me to. This is YOUR claim. It is YOUR job to prove it. Can you show me any source to show that this is an accepted definition of theme in the game industry? If not, then your claim does not stand. You claim to be scientific. This should not be a foreign concept to you. On another subject of a lie. I could faithfully call you a liar right now. You claim to "not care". No one in their right mind will go through the effort if they didn't care. You make lengthy replies and dedicate time to this, therefore you care. I do the same, therefor I care. This really doesn't get any simpler. Does it feel good to know that you fall under definition 1 as that was likely intentional, under my own assumption. Rather than "deceptive" as I fully admit to doing, and have done so when I explained my "marketing" bullshit comparison to make myself look better. Again, very very simple concept. No explanation should be required. No, because, yet again. It was not an intentional lie, or even a lie of any kind. It was just you again showing a total lack of reading comprehension. "I don't care at all if you're a liar. Whatever you do outside of this conversation is your business. The only reason I brought up you lying is when you lied about something that is not relevant to the debate or if you told lies about me." I never said that I didn't care about this topic. I actually said that I enjoyed debating, and care about defending my views. I clearly indicated that I found whether or not you lied relevant in the context of this conversation, which is why I addressed it, and that outside of the context of this conversation, I didn't care. I said that to hopefully end your incessant whining and your pathetic attempts to convince me you weren't lying. Either you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or simply cannot read effectively. I don't really care which, but you're wrong and you should probably apologize for calling me a liar. Now I'm going to ask you to ask a few questions this time around. If you can answer ALL of these correctly, then I will concede in this argument and admit you are right. Just remember that themes in gaming is very different than you may expect. I am asking for the base theme, most which is decided before the proto-type phase. I doubt this will be a challenge for you. Some of them can be reoccurring themes, none the less they are themes, and without understanding these themes you will not see success in the gaming industry. You will fall flat on your face. By the way. If any one answers before you, it's a bust, so please let JWeinCom plead his case. 1) Metroid Prime, Elderscrolls, Myth
Yeah... Even if I wanted to, I don't how to address this politely. . Instead of giving giving 15 answers, I'll just list the top 15 ways that this is ridiculously stupid.
1. You actually didn't ask me any questions. You know... those things with question marks at the end?
2. Even if I was inclined to buy into this stupidity, I don't know what you want me to do. Do you want me to list one theme that's common to all three games? Do you want me to pick one game from each list?
3. Why do you get to decide the theme of the games? What makes you an authority? Have you talked to every single developer out there?
4. If I disagree with you, what then? You're not automatically right. So, we would then have to have another debate about EACH one of these games to
determine that. We would literally wind up having 45 different arguments about 45 different games.
5. You have not demonstrated that your definition of theme is valid.
6. You included the theme of Mass Effect in the list... which we have already established we disagree on. *facepalm*
7. Are you like a Batman villain or something? What does this convoluted game have to do with anything? This is straight up riddler shit.
 8. Why on Earth would we have to discuss the themes of literally 45 other games to determine the theme of Mass Effect?
9. Even if I got everything right, what would that prove? Does that somehow change what you think about the theme of Mass Effect. "OH well, you knew the theme of Brutal Legend. Clearly then, my opinion of Mass Effect must be wrong.
10. Didn't you say that you talked to the writers of Mass Effect, and this is the basis of your opinion? So, if I pass this weird little test, you'll suddenly believe that I know more than Mass Effect about them?
11. This conversation WAS about story, and I showed clear evidence that YOU were talking about story originally. Why are you trying to change the scope?
12. There is no game "The Elder Scrolls". Without a subtitle, I can't tell which game you are talking about. Same thing with things like the Legend of Zelda. Are you talking about the NES game? Ocarina of Time? Skyward Sword? Majora's Mask? Twilight Princess? Phantom Hourglass? Cause the theme can be different for all of those.
13. I already said I am not involved in game development. So why do I care if I "won't go very far"?
14. Do you think I care about earning your respect? I have lived a very happy life without it, and I'm sure that will continue. As we have established that I, either correctly or incorrectly, think of you as a pathological liar, why would I care about it?
15. I don't need you to concede any arguments. It might give a little stroke to my ego, but I already know that my interpretation is grounded in evidence, my opinion on authorship is backed by writings of thinkers far greater than either of us, and you have provided nothing to support yourself.
16. " Now I'm going to ask you questions?" You didn't answer mine.
17. Did I ever claim to be an absolute authority on theme? That I knew the theme of every game? No I did not. I have not played many of these games. Even the ones I had, I may or may not have thought deeply about theme. I happen to have played through the Mass Effect series several times, and I got into quite a few discussions about the ending, so I feel strongly that I have a valid interpretation of the theme in this case.
18. Basically, you're doing this.
TWIIIIIIIIX! So... I have a brilliant idea. Instead of talking about 45 other games to figure out the theme of Mass Effect why don't we just talk about Mass Effect? I've addressed all of your inane claims here, and I am perfectly happy to end all of these lines of conversation if you don't bring them up again. Now, I will repeat the questions I asked last time. If you don't answer them, then yes, you are absolutely dodging my points. I will consider the argument conceded. I don't care if you actually concede. While I'll admit that from an egotistical standpoint I would enjoy that, it's not necessary. If you refuse to address my points, that is a concession. If you won't address relevant points, you are giving up.
Just let me say. The only two points I really care about are a) the theme of Mass Effect. b) Whether or not an author's extratextual claims should be taken as absolute.
2. Whether or not you talked to someone at Bioware , there should still be evidence in the games themselves that organics vs synthetics is the main theme. Right? 3. Following # 2, do you have any evidence that, from BOTH a design and literary perspective, organics vs synthetics is the main theme? Prove this, using evidence from the games. 4. Should people accept claims without any sort of evidence? If they should not, why do you keep insisting I should believe your claims? These four questions that you ignored several times now are laser focussed on the original topic. They are asking you DIRECTLY to address the theme of Mass Effect and the issue of an author's authority. I have a feeling you might use my refusal to play your stupid game as a reason to not answer these, so you have my absolute word that I will do that if you give straightforward answers to these questions. It won't prove anything about Mass Effect, but I will. |
It may or may not surprise you to know that I actually WAS referring to the theme from both points of view when I made the initial claim. Other wise, why would I even both brining it up? LOL I'm sorry but.... wow dude, just wow. You are throwing in a lot of smoke and mirrors and straight up ignorance of ignoring half of my replies. Focusing on the little openings in my posts. Interesting how you stray away from the strong points in EVERY post. I'm starting to have some troubles of taking you seriously at the moment. Please do not take this the wrong way. Then again, I'm doing the same so why should I even blame you?
I don't mind a good debate but seriously? You're using your literature knowledge where I'm using my game design knowledge on a subject about a video game and the writing of a story. No shit we are going to have a disagreement here. Your degree, should you have it, would show that you have a better idea of theme in terms of writing than I would. However, on the contrary, you have no idea what a theme is in a video game. At least in my opinion, sure i know about theme in writing, but I understand theme in game design.
I gave you a list of 15 games to give a theme. I stated clearly that I would link 3 games together. I asked that you give me the theme that those games were derivative from. Or is the common denominator. All three games would share the same theme. I did not specify a certain Zelda or Elderscrolls game due to the theme. Every Elderscrolls game has this theme as it's core. I should have been more clear with Zelda because the Windwaker timeline (The Hero of Wind and a New World) does NOT follow this as a theme and has a very different theme form the rest of the Zelda games. Do you know what those 3 games have for it's theme?
I will give you one of the 15 for free. #2 Metal Gear Solid, Call of Duty, Age of Empires all contains the theme of war. Some of the other games I've listed have themes that go beyond the obvious. Some that I actually don't think you'd have guessed without a designers mindset. Which allowed me to conclude that you would not get 15/15 right. I used no riddles, I simply used the industry standard logic.
I feel through that. I have rested my case. Could you at least get 5 of those right? Really, is it that hard?
I will also state that all my evidence is the same as yours. Verbal and non-physical evidence. We both used logic from our perspective areas of experience with an attempt of explaining to one another. We both continue to go at each others throats through that mindset. It's clear we will not see eye to eye on it. I stand by my claims, and you stand by yours. What I do not tolerate is the whole "you lied" bullshit. I explained my justifications and continue to do so. I am beginning to believe you are delusional, I expect you to feel the same about me. After all, we share a very different perspective for a good reason. It's clear as glass.
I will answer you questions since you insist. Personally I choose to focus on the aspects that stuck out the most to me. Which you seem to not like, and perhaps found to be disrespectful. So I will quote you and play my part of addressing your questions more seriously and with proper consideration. Something that you rightfully claim that I ignored.
"1. How can we tell if an author's comments about their work are wrong? If what the author says disagrees with the actual text, which do we accept?
2. Whether or not you talked to someone at Bioware , there should still be evidence in the games themselves that organics vs synthetics is the main theme. Right?
3. Following # 2, do you have any evidence that, from BOTH a design and literary perspective, organics vs synthetics is the main theme? Prove this, using evidence from the games.
4. Should people accept claims without any sort of evidence? If they should not, why do you keep insisting I should believe your claims?"
1) What you propose is interesting. I say this because there are two sides to this. For one the author's comments should be right unless they are lying for a reason. If the author disagrees with their text and they choose to write it, then we as an audience should accept the current canon. We may have a preference of our liking, but the true story is the canon. This is why many Star Wars fans choose to follow Lucas' vision and the EU over Disney's more simplified and in my opinion, dumbed down Star Wars. I do feel that this is a bad example because of "corporate trade". As for the author's intended vision verses their public release that is written. This is very much a gray area. Some might consider that the authors vision is correct because they are the creators of the story. Sometimes a single grammical error can change a meaning, or the author failed to correct convey their message to the masses. It is still their story and they are the visionaries. From another perspective, as you seem to suggest. What is done is done. It is perceived as such by our understanding of literature and how they communicated themselves to their audiences. They created it, it is by some law and concept we created in our society to be the definite version as it written as such. You may be surprised that speech and language is a human creation and contains perspective and has zero definite. It is not a fact like the sun rises every day, or perhaps that can't be proven either? Perhaps it can. On Earth, if you jump, you will land. If you drop something, it will hit the ground under certain conditions. But when someone might see the color red, a color blind person would likely see green or another color. The color they see remains true to them, it is their experience and perception of their reality. Therefor both statements are true. The English language is built upon perspectives and understanding of language that is created by man, there is no definite answer stated by the laws of the universe. So in this case, we can very much accept both the authors claims and the written text and consider both perspectives. What do have is a social standard that is universally accepted amongst the people. So in the end, there is truth to both. One is definitive, the other is not. Both use their own sets of logic.
2&3) Many stories, especially in video games evolve to have many different arcs, which creates subthemes. These sub-themes are what you are claiming to be main themes, if I am not mistaken. In a video game a game will be based on a set of themes, as well as what we call "forms of fun". As for Mass Effect, it is true that each entry does have it's own theme but they all are glued together by the main theme of humans and synthetics. I am willing to bet if you give me multiple themes from the game. I estimate that around 7 or 8 out of 10 of them can be linked back to my claim. At least a good portion of them. Now there are main other subthemes. The romance plot of the game is uses love as a theme, this must be shocking to you... -_- The Illusive Man has a theme of control. This theme of control is split into 3 areas. 1) Manipulation and power over others. 2) Human dominance in the galaxy. And importantly 3) Control over synthetic beings know as the Reapers. This links back to the Organic and Synthetic claim. He want's to use the Reapers (synthetic being) for the advancement (human dominance theme) of humanity (organic theme) while manipulating them (manipulation and power over others) to achieve that goal. Yes he also engages in control through resources and what some may refer too as organised crime. In the end his story contains organics and synthetics as a major theme. With Anderson the galaxy is at war with the Geth, Collectors, and Reapers. All which are directly linked to Synthetics vs Organics with the Collectors being an organic race that is controlled (control theme again) by a synthetic race. No matter what perspective you choose to look at Mass Effect from, we see the main theme being Organics and Synthetics as the needle and thread. That is the base foundation. We see the Reapers combining biological and synthetic parts to create these fucked up creatures. The biotoics is another cool concept, but it links back to technological modification which amplifies the body tissue. Asari are natural biotics, but humans require implants (technology, which is a theme that is tied together with the concept of synthetics, that technology is a HUGE theme as they go hand in hand). We can tie almost everything in the game to biology and technology and their interactions with one another.
There are two things that you should have understood.
1) All Reapers are both organic and synthetic beings.
2) The function of the Reapers to preserve the existence of the Galaxy so life can grow and have their chance to evolve. Another function was to stop apex race's from dominating the galaxy. And *gasps* because synthetics and organic beings never get along, galactic peace will always be at risk. Therefor the final solution was found. Only one solution could address ALL the answers and themes of the game. The synthesis ending is considered canon at Bioware because it "unites" "organics and synthetics" by creating a single race that follows the "all is one" concept. Biology and technology are no longer different concepts and ethnic differences are set aside (another big theme of the series)
It is unfortunate that many people do not see this and this poll proves otherwise, as does your replies. These perspectives does NOT change the intention or the message of the game or what it is about, what ties it all together, from a development point of view. The synthesis ending combines everything into one and makes perfect sense from both a story and gameplay perspective. What this does make clear is that developers need to be a little more clearer on portraying these messages. I for one think it was clear as day. These are certainly things that should be taken notes of. I also have been taking notes of this from the responses I've seen in this thread. It can only allow for improvement, but the inability to please everyone must also be considered as it is the nature of things.
4) Perhaps not. We both are shoot smoke and using our own knowledge to support out claims. For the other person, that knowledge seems to not serve them. I addressed it from the game development point of view and the based on the foundation of both the story and the message of the game, or shall I say the intended theme.
I hope these answers are more than satisfactory to you. I still await your answers based on the themes of the games I sent you. All of them can be stated in 5 words or less. Most are 1-2 words. Very, very simple stuff. Again it's the theme that they share in common, it doesn't even need to be the main theme. Some of them are the base themes, and there may or may not be a couple that are tricky.
