| JWeinCom said:
Second "we can say with about99.99999999% certainty that he is not gay". No we cannot. It's not that simple and percentages really mean nothing if not backed by evidence. In this case, you'd need a scene in the comics (that is cannon, not a parallel universe) where he's really old and he talks to someone like Jean Grey (who is actively reading hsi mind) and tells her he never had any feelings for men. And this is why I say things like that. Do we really need a scene where Spider-man is essentially hooked up to a polygraph test and saying he's not gay to prove he's gay? Cause that's laughably ridiculous, so don't get offended when I point that out. Do we need to get a DNA test on him to prove that Aunt May is actually his aunt? Should we force Mary Jane to grow out her hair to prove she's actually a red head? Do we need to get a metallurgist to verify the makeup of Captain America's shield? Why the ridiculous standard of evidence required for this particular claim? But, if you want to talk about evidence, fine let's talk about it. My evidence that Peter Parker is a heterosexual- He's dated women. He married a woman. He had a kid. We know from his internal monologues that he has been attracted to many women. No telepath or person taking over Spider-man's mind has said anything about him being gay/bi/pan/whatever, even though Otto Octavious specifically went after Spider-man's love interests to prove himself the superior Spider-man. We as the readers are privy to his thoughts, and those thoughts have never included anything about being attracted to men. Let's focus on that last one since you want to talk about evidence. In science you have a hypothesis. Your hypothesis is that Peter Parker is attracted to men. Now, a theory should be predictive. So, it should make some measureable and testable predictions. It seems like a reasonable prediction that if Peter Parker was attracted to men, then each time he meets a man, of which he has met thousands, there should be a chance that he'd be attracted to him, especially since he's met dreamboats like Johnny Storm and Steve Rogers. And, since most comic books are told from Peter Parker's first person thoughts or an omniscient third person narrator, we should see some sign of his attraction to men in thought bubbles, dialogue, or narration. So let's run our test. Out of 10000+ encounters with men throughout Spider-man comic books, the rate of Spider-man showing any signs of attraction or romantic interest is 0%. Simply hasn't happened. So, we have to reject the hypothesis that Peter Parker is attracted to men, and accept the null hypothesis that he is not attracted to men. So then, present evidence to the contrary. And if you cannot present evidence but you still insist that there is any real possibility he's attracted to men, then yes, you need your head checked. You seem to have a very limited understanding of sexuality and that's fine. You may wanna educate yourself or keep your current thoughts, but I can tell you that just because you've known gay people, it doesn't mean you know everything there is to know. With limited knowledge, you are bound to make generalizations. Also, I was not referring to closeted cases; neither was I talking about Parker wanting to have sex with a man. Sexuality is not only about sex. I'm all ears then. If something I said is wrong, I am happy to be corrected. But yes, you were talking about closeted cases, because if Peter Parker was attracted to men, and it has never come up over about 30 years of life, then he definitely was closeted. And yes, we are talking about sexual interest, because that was the context for the conversation. The story could be something as simple as Peter in his teens spending time with a new friend and developing feelings for him. He can have feelings for a man and a woman and show us how he's questioning his sexuality. This is not unheard of for people in their teens. Even if he does end up realizing that he's bi/pansexual, it doesn't mean that he must have had a relationship with a guy later on. 1. Peter Parker didn't have friends in high school. His closest male friend in his youth was Harry Osborne, and that's established as a platonic relationship. Peter, in 616 and Ultimate incarnations, actually showed far more interest in females in his teen days. 2. It's not unheard of for people in their teens. It is unheard of for Peter Parker, because we never heard about it. 3. What you're suggesting is retconning. Changing established continuity and creating something in the past that never happened. If this happened, then yes Peter Parker would be gay/bi or whatever. But, it didn't. 4. If he's not going to have a relationship with a guy, then what the hell is the point? Why go through the effort to inject some homoerotic stuff into Peter's past to not have any follow up? That's just shitty storytelling. Like, seriously why? Just to say "hey readers, just so you know, Spider-man liked this dude once. Not important for any reason, but just so you know." 5. You're not actually making a case for Spider-man liking dudes, you're just kind of saying that it would be neat if we got some gay Spidey fanfic. And if we're going to do gay fanfic for marvel characters, this is a terrible choice. Seriously, Bucky and Captain America. Two warriors who find love among the horrors of world war II only to tragically be torn apart and then awaken years later to face eachother as enemies on the battlefield. That's a way better story then "hey Spider-man met this cute guy once and he kind of liked him." |
1. Yes, i have read the comics. Still no need to use that kind of language, but since you can't help yourself, I'll start using it so that you can perhaps understand me bette, since civilized cinversation is not your thing.
2. "you definitely need to get your head checked": Do me a favour and take your own advice
3. "Do we really need a scene where Spider-man is essentially hooked up to a polygraph test and saying he's not gay to prove he's gay?" No, we don't. I wasn't the one pulling numbers out of my ass. You were. To make that kind of a claim, you do need such a scene. There isn't so we can't be 99.99999999999 (or how many more 9's you want to add) %sure.
4. "Why the ridiculous standard of evidence required for this particular claim": The only thing ridiculous here are the examples you provided. Plus, you are once again wrong. I didn't say there needs to be proof he likes girls. I said he may also like boys. Huge difference, but if you can't see it, not my problem.
5. "if you want to talk about evidence, fine let's talk about it." All your evidence suggests that he likes women. I never argued that he's gay. Through the comics we're shown one side of the character. That doesn't mean other sides don't exist.
Take Eric from True Blood. We see him only date women, only have lust/love for women and then in one episode he mentions that he's been with men too. So up until that episode we think he's straight. If one were to argue that he also may like guys, you'd say "but here's the evidence!". Evidence showing what? That he likes women? We can all agree on that. What we don't know until that point is whether he likes guys too. And they/he says he does. In other words, just because we're not shown something, it doesn't mean that we know that the character never did it/felt that way.
6. "But yes, you were talking about closeted cases, because if Peter Parker was attracted to men, and it has never come up over about 30 years of life, then he definitely was closeted". Once again you're dead wrong and jump to conclusions. It never came up for Eric either until that episode, yet he wasn't closeted. Just because someone may have liked 2-3 women his life, but never been with one, it doesn't mean he's closeted straight. He may have liked some guys and we only get to see that in a flashback (as happens in most shows when there's a huge revelation).
7. "It seems like a reasonable prediction that if Peter Parker was attracted to men, then each time he meets a man, of which he has met thousands, there should be a chance that he'd be attracted to him, especially since he's met dreamboats like Johnny Storm and Steve Rogers. And, since most comic books are told from Peter Parker's first person thoughts or an omniscient third person narrator, we should see some sign of his attraction to men in thought bubbles, dialogue, or narration.
So let's run our test. Out of 10000+ encounters with men throughout Spider-man comic books, the rate of Spider-man showing any signs of attraction or romantic interest is 0%. Simply hasn't happened. So, we have to reject the hypothesis that Peter Parker is attracted to men, and accept the null hypothesis that he is not attracted to men."
That's a very flawed logic. Extremely flawed, I'd say. The narrator chooses to show us some sides of him. Not all of them. Yes, it is possible to have purposely hidden that side of him even if he'd met thousands of men. Similar to how a narrator may be a ghost, knows that they are a ghost and doesn't reveal so until the end of the movie. If you read papers on the Aeneid and the tricks that the omniscient narrator is playing on the reader or even Plato in the Lysis, you'll see that narrators do not always reveal the entire truth. Saving such a revalation for later tends to shock the audience.
8. "And if you cannot present evidence but you still insist that there is any real possibility he's attracted to men, then yes, you need your head checked". Once again, take your own advice.
9. "Peter Parker didn't have friends in high school. His closest male friend in his youth was Harry Osborne, and that's established as a platonic relationship." I'm not sure if you can see the contradiction here, but let's just say I bolded it for you just in case.
10. "What you're suggesting is retconning. Changing established continuity and creating something in the past that never happened. If this happened, then yes Peter Parker would be gay/bi or whatever". But, it didn't." Once again, you're wrong. It was never shown. We don't know if it did happen. All it takes is a single reference or a flashback to show us that it did happen. We don't see every single event from his life, just parts of it that he chooses to share. The others tend to be revealed through a flashback.
11. If he's not going to have a relationship with a guy, then what the hell is the point? Why go through the effort to inject some homoerotic stuff into Peter's past to not have any follow up? That's just shitty storytelling. Like, seriously why? Just to say "hey readers, just so you know, Spider-man liked this dude once. Not important for any reason, but just so you know."
You're not actually making a case for Spider-man liking dudes, you're just kind of saying that it would be neat if we got some gay Spidey fanfic. And if we're going to do gay fanfic for marvel characters, this is a terrible choice. Seriously, Bucky and Captain America. Two warriors who find love among the horrors of world war II only to tragically be torn apart and then awaken years later to face eachother as enemies on the battlefield. That's a way better story then "hey Spider-man met this cute guy once and he kind of liked him."
Shows further how little you understand these issues. As I said many teens struggle with their sexuality and are afraid to speak about it. They tend to oppress it, get married and then cheat on their wives/husbands with people of the same gender (think Brokeback Mountain). This could show teenagers that it's something that other people go through. Maybe they're not actually gay, but they need to figure that out by talking to someone or through exploration. Maybe they are, but it's ok. Peter Parker also kissed guys so if I feel like kissing a dude, there's nothing to be ashamed about. It is something that people who discovered they're straight through doubts and eventual exploration can relate to. It could be a great coming of age story. And it could represent all the bi people, who are neglected by the media. In most movies/tvseries and even comics, you're either gay or straight. Parker can be pansexual and have only found great love in women.
