Dulfite said:
I like to break down things like this into points, so if you will indulge me... 1) A Christian is someone who follows Christ. Christ told his followers to love people, not kill them. Never once did HE command any of his followers to inflict harm upon people or to do anything to them that wasn't loving. 2) This is a concept that is hard, if not impossible, for an unbeliever to comprehend but I shall try to break it down. Under the Christian faith, there is God. It isn't good vs. evil (as the world tries to tell us), but rather God and, therefore, godliness. The absence of godliness is what we call sin. God is perfect, therefore HE cannot have sin, because sin is the opposite of HIS nature, as he is perfect and holy. We are all born into the sin (whether you are the Pope, John Piper, John McCarthur, C.S. Lewis, some random Mcdonalds worker, a stripper, or anyone else). We are born into something that is counter to God, because we do things that are imperfect. We don't always love, we often show hatred towards people (in actions and in thoughts), we commit adultry, we murder, we lie, etc. We are born into it because, originally, of the original sin with Adam and Eve. Even from our youth, we are selfish in nature (crying when we don't get what we want, trying to manipulate parents and others in order to get what we want). We are never innocent. God knew this, and HE didn't WANT us to be void of him, to be sin filled, and didn't want us to be separated from HIM forever, so HE sent HIS son Jesus Christ to live, die, and resurrect for us. HE has done all the hard work, it's just up to us whether or not we want to accept HIS forgiveness or not. HE isn't going to force people to believe in Christ as their savior (not until the end). Yes, eventually every knee will bow, and many will be cast into Hell but that is only because they CHOSE to NOT accept Jesus as their savior. At that point, there is no one to blame but yourself as you had ample opportunities to turn to Christ (as an adult Christian now, I marvel at how many things I see now that would have easily made me believe in Christ had I not been a beliver). We are intended to be with God, but if people chose to live without HIM through HIS son, then they are chosing hell themselves. I can't force someone to chose Christ, and I wouldn't want to either; you have to desire it yourself (as I did and continue to do). 3) Again, Christ never told us to harm others, that doesn't mean the Father doesn't have the right to. Yes, God punished people that turned away from HIM, but it always brought people back to HIM making them realize their need and love for HIM again. It's easy to, as a non believer, read randomly through the old testament, find verses that appear to contradict the Christian faith, and post about them online. Context is more important in the Bible than in any other book in history for understanding. God will do whatever it takes to make HIS love for us known, which often times makes people get out of their comfort zone by experiencing (what we perceive as) terrible things. I myself have experienced some terrible things in my life that I doubted God's purpose for, at the time. Now, years later, I see how it turned others to Christ and turned me more to God. If I can go through suffering that ultimately leads myself and others to either have an initial or growing relationship with Christ, then praise God! 4) Christianity isn't a status. You have to accept Christ and have your life turned around. It's not a club that you can just randomly join. When you accept Christ, HE changes your life. If your life doesn't change (Hitler) and produce fruit, then your lying to yourself about your faith. You either have Christ ruling your heart, or you don't. Hitler most certainly did not, therefore he is in no way representative of any form of authentic, Jesus loving, God fearing, Christianity. 5) There is nothing I enjoy about these conversations, unless they bring people to faith in Christ. It saddens me, as it does many, how something that appeared so foolish to me and other believers (before we believed), now is so sensible, and yet we cannot make it sensible to the unbelievers. It takes faith and with faith comes a greater understanding of what is REALLY going on. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. |
1. According to Jesus- For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. This means all of the old testament laws like stoning gay people to death, slavery, and so on still apply. Also, do you believe that apostasy is an unforgivable sin and you will be tortured for all eternity if you deny Jesus? Cause he certainly seems ok to torture people after death... forever. So I don't see why torturing non-believers in life would be so abominable to him.
2. "This is a concept that is hard, if not impossible, for an unbeliever to comprehend but I shall try to break it down. Under the Christian faith, there is God. It isn't good vs. evil (as the world tries to tell us), but rather God and, therefore, godliness."
Nope... Good and evil are mentioned many times in the bible specifically. And, they're contrasted in the bible a bunch of times.
God is perfect, therefore HE cannot have sin, because sin is the opposite of HIS nature, as he is perfect and holy.
So... nothing god does is a sin... and being like god is intrinsicly good right? So killing Job's children to prove a point is good? Flooding the entire world and killing babies, and animals who had nothing to with it is good? God commanding the Israelites to murder every Midianite except for the virgins (wonder what they were supposed to do with them...) is good? Killing people who worship idols (golden calf) is good? Sending bears to kill people who insult a prophet is good? Commanding you to kill your family if they worship other gods is good? Torturing people for all eternity for a sin committed before they existed is good?
And yes I know this is old testament stuff, cause that's what I grew up with, but Jesus is quite clear on the fact that the god he describes is yahweh from the old testament.
We are all born into the sin (whether you are the Pope, John Piper, John McCarthur, C.S. Lewis, some random Mcdonalds worker, a stripper, or anyone else).
Do you have any children? If you did, would you look at your newborn baby and say "you are a sinner and deserve eternal torture"? Because this is an absolutely disgusting idea, and it is not a surprise it leads to horrible results. Think of whoever you love most in the world. If they didn't love you back, would you torture them forever?
We don't always love, we often show hatred towards people (in actions and in thoughts), we commit adultry, we murder, we lie, etc. We are born into it because, originally, of the original sin with Adam and Eve. Even from our youth, we are selfish in nature (crying when we don't get what we want, trying to manipulate parents and others in order to get what we want).
Adam and Eve? So you take the genesis account literally? Cause I mean... we're modern people in a modern world here and that story contradicts just about any information we've uncovered about our world. If you take it as a metaphor, fine. But literally? And what was their sin? They ate from the tree of knowledge, before which they did not have any knowledge of good and evil. They had know way of knowing whether or not what they were doing was a bad thing. Their sin was not being blindly obedient. Their sin was questioning god. Apparently yahweh likes us stupid, amoral, and obedient.
And crying is evil? You know what would happen to a baby that never cried? That little kid would have an incredibly poor chance of survival.
We are never innocent. God knew this, and HE didn't WANT us to be void of him, to be sin filled, and didn't want us to be separated from HIM forever, so HE sent HIS son Jesus Christ to live, die, and resurrect for us.
What did Jesus do? How does god sacrificing himself to himself redeem me? Personally, I wouldn't want another person to be sacrificed for something I did. That's disgusting. If you killed someone would it be ok for me to be imprisoned forever and get raped in the ass all day and you go free? No. That isn't justice. That's sickening.
And if god wants us to be with him can't he just... you know... let us? He's omnipotent and omniscient, yah? Can't he figure out a better way then torturing an innocent person for something he didn't do? Is yahweh just so messed up and revenge happy that he has to kill someone, no matter who it is?
HE isn't going to force people to believe in Christ as their savior (not until the end). Yes, eventually every knee will bow, and many will be cast into Hell but that is only because they CHOSE to NOT accept Jesus as their savior.
No. I didn't choose anything. There is no evidence to believe it, so I don't. I can't believe that Jesus exists any more than I could believe that there are little green men on Jupiter. Maybe they're there, but until there is some sort of evidence (neither preaching nor the bible counts) then I can't. Not that I won't, I can't. If you have some evidence though go for it. But please don't confuse preaching with evidence.
We are intended to be with God, but if people chose to live without HIM through HIS son, then they are chosing hell themselves. I can't force someone to chose Christ, and I wouldn't want to either; you have to desire it yourself (as I did and continue to do).
So those who don't believe in jesus deserve to be burned for all eternity? Yet, hitler burning them in this world is somehow against the religion? You can't torture them till they kick the bucket? If we should be like yahweh, we should be torturing non-believers. Hell, we're commanded to.
3. Again, Christ never told us to harm others, that doesn't mean the Father doesn't have the right to.
Wait... so there is no evil... just godliness... as in doing what god does... And god is jesus... and jesus is perfect and therefore as godly as can be...so we should be godly by not harming others because jesus doesn't do it... but we should harm people because god does... huh...
yahweh has some wacky split personality thing going. That's like saying it's wrong for Peter Parker to kill someone, but Spider-man is allowed.
Yes, God punished people that turned away from HIM, but it always brought people back to HIM making them realize their need and love for HIM again.
How does being tortured in hell forever make them love him? This sounds like an abusive boyfriend. Love me or else. You are worthless without me. Right out of the abusive spouse handbook. You should not fear someone you love.
It's easy to, as a non believer, read randomly through the old testament, find verses that appear to contradict the Christian faith, and post about them online.
Yeah... because the book is disgusting and yahweh's actions are disgusting.
Context is more important in the Bible than in any other book in history for understanding.
First of all, no. Context is equally important in any book. There is no reason to give special consideration to the bible. But if context is so important, explain to me in what context enslaving the heathens around you is. Also please explain the context where killing the entire population of a city but keeping the virgins alive is ok in context.
4. Ah... so anyone who does good things because of their belief in christ is divinely inspired. Anyone who doesn't is just a liar liar pants on fire. Pretty sweet win win situation you've constructed.
When your belief system states that certain people are so terrible (for not believing in something) that they deserve to be tortured forever, do you not see how this would lead to people being looked down on or even to be the subject of harm? You cannot respect someone while thinking they deserve eternal punishment.
5. Faith is a terrible terrible thing. Faith is believing something without any good reason to. Faith, be it faith to an infallible state, an infallible leader, an infallible philosopy, is the common denominator in all the things you've mentioned. Faith in hitler, faith in stalin, faith in hirohito, faith in god, faith in jesus, faith in allah, faith in the motherland, etc. Believing in anything without question and without evidence in inherently a bad thing.
Name one other area in which faith is a good thing? Not trust, which is belief with good reason (for example my girlfiend has always been honest so I trust she's not cheating on me), but faith. In what other aspect of our lives is faith a good thing? If faith is not a good thing in any other aspect of our lives, why should we use it here?
So if you want people to see the light, just prove it. Show atheists objective evidence and we'll be happy to believe. Living forever would kick ass, and I'm certainy not opposed to it. But I can't believe things without evidence.
"It is an insult to God to believe in God. For on the one hand it is to suppose that he has perpetrated acts of incalculable cruelty. On the other, it is to suppose that he has perversely given his human creatures an instrument -- their intellect -- which must inevitably lead them, if they are dispassionate and honest, to deny his existence. It is tempting to conclude that if he exists, it is the atheists and agnostics that he loves best, among those with any pretensions to education. For they are the ones who have taken him most seriously." -- Galen Strawson
