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Wonktonodi said:
sc94597 said:
Wonktonodi said:
sc94597 said:

Yes the communicative and testimonial priveleges should be abolished. Such laws already vary among states. Notice that in most cases that the first only protects private conversations after they were married. What is so special about marriage that gives them this privelege? Why couldn't they be afforded this privelege when they were dating? Alimony agreements can be made through written (or as in the case of marriage) verbal contracts which are rewarded among the judge's reasoning. Again, if forming contracts is too much of a bother, you can use the money you would have paid for a marriage license to purchase a pre-formatted contract bundle which your lawyer would summarize for you and your partner(s). If you are that lazy that is and you don't want to put in the work for a fool-proof legal contract that you both agree with. 

The statual law =/= common law. All a person needs to do is tell a judge he/she is married and the judge is obliged to accept it, as long as there is evidence to substantiate this (a signed contract or some other record.) Common law is the law created by precedent cases of judges, and it works very differently from statutes.

The state will enforce contracts in any system in which the state has a monopoly on the issuance of law. It will not oblige state mandated licensing (what it does now), it will not impose its own stipulations to these contracts (as it does now) , nor will it give special priveleges to certain contracts over others (as it does now.) The argument is not to get the state to stop enforcing contracts (that is a different argument to be made.) The argument is for them to enforce them equally and fairly and for it to not alter said contracts with its own statutes.


strongly disgree with your first paragraph. and there is a big diffrerence between dating someone and getting married to them. I don't want to give the state more room for abuse by trying to lock up one partner "for not talking" to get to the other one even if they do know nothing.

second paragraph, and how well have things like that worked out for same sex comples? to much doubt left it for many who have been committed for decades.

third paragraph, far too libertarian for me, ifthe state will the one enforcing it, it should meet certain standards or be thrown out. such as someone has already committed to something in a contract and can't commit to it again,state laws aren't just there for the betterment of the state but for legal protections of it's citizens.

beyond that. Social security benefits and other types of death benefits, from pensions, vetrans benefits et. You want to say they aren't fair to people who were single, but the people who were given those benefits new that there spose would get them, taking them away to be "equal" would be very wrong.

getting citizenship to a spose. how would you replace this or this anther one that should just go away?

The state shouldn't have the ability to do that to anybody. If I or my casual boyfriend decided not to testify against each-other the state should respect that and not assume that we are lieing just as much as if two married persons did the same. Don't you agree?  We both live in the same house, and share privacy. Also, what is the difference between two persons being a couple and marriage? They decided to sign a paper declaring that they are a couple and added in some contractual obligations. I don't see how that is anything that should afford them special legal priveleges over other people. 

Quite well actually. The supreme court (via common law) just outlawed legislation as unconstitutional that says two persons of the same sex can't form a specific contract. It wasn't a statute which did this.

So you don't believe in equal treatment? You only believe in equal treatment for those who contracts you agree with. I get it. In that case please don't paint yourself as an arbitrator of equality. You are not.

I don't say take those benefits away specifically from spouses (although there is an argument to be made about reforming these things.) I am saying that the person should clearly denote who gets the benefits upon their death. How exactly can the state determine who that person wants their property to go to more than they can?

Citzenship shouldn't be a thing. It wasn't a thing for the first hundred or so of the existence of the United States of America. I believe in free immigration as an ideal. But if we are to talk about our current reality, I think the immigration system should be reformed to allow anybody to sponsor an immigrant for a variety of reasons and contracts. Common-law marriage could be among these reasons.

perhaps not, there are many powers that the states have with the criminal justices systesm that are far too large. the "special" rights are ones they signed up for, all couples that aren'y maried yet don't have it, those that are do. Since you aren't legally married to your bf, they wouldn't think of you as attached to him and thus don't think of him as leverage.

14th constitutional amendmemnt. considering that it had to go to the supreme court, I'd say on the state level people weren't doing that well. if it wasn't an issue it wouldn't have gone that far. most people in most states coudn't just tell judges they were married and get the benefits.

I believe in a unified law, I don't believe in people trying to make their own law outside the law then expecting it to have the same standing. I don't believe people should be allowed to put anything in a contract, that's not that I don't think some people, all people. You can try and say I'm not for equality, but contracts aren't people, you had NO qualifiers in there, I don't agree with contracts that would then infringe on other people rights, (a contract to kill someone) contracts that significantly take away people right, slavey, opressive work conditions, you can say people had to agree to them, but if you take the state out of the equation, that leave too much room for coertion.  Peoples rights aren't limited by their own abilities to defend them. That's why I'm in favor of the state having limitations on what people can do with contracts.

I think we are talking around eachother here. The simple thing is many institutions offer benefits to spouces, some do to significant others, those get paid out because the people were married, those do discriminate agains those who are single, they themselves lose nothing. If they have a significant other but aren't married, well then they lose out, but they know that is the fact currently with the system as it is. Before same sex mairages were legal it wasn't a choice of being married or not, it was just no. But in those cases it's not the state the decides who gets the benefits, it's the couple that got married that did. People when they make their wills determine who gets what, if they don't then things

It was enough of a thing that it's in the constitution as a requirement for president. There were also plenty of laws passed involving it including the Aliens and sedition acts back in 1798. Though those had controversies and some were let to expire in 1800 and 1801, others were used during WWII though that's movie away from citizenship through getting married, the point is that it is important to have that as a way of not having people deported. Yes there needs to be plenty of reform with imigration , though I don't think taking this away is part of the solution.

I don't view that as right. There are many reasons why people choose to not get married besides detachment. I know people who have gotten married after 6 months precisely because they were pressured in to it by their families and pregnancy and I also know long-lasting couples (who could have gotten married) who were not married for up to fifteen years, before they finally decided they had the resources, funds, and desire to do it. That is why I promote de facto or sui jurus marriage rather than statutory marriage. Furthermore, I think nobody should be compelled by the state to testify against anybody else. That is immoral and amounts to a subtle form of slavery. Same holds for things like jury duty.

To get to the supreme court it had to go through various other courts, and it still doesn't change the fact that it was the judicial system and a common law appeal (by Kennedy) which made the decision final, not congress and their statutes. Even before this many state laws were overruled by federal judges, and local laws by state judges. So the judicial system and common law has been on the side of gay marriage for the last few years now.

A contract to kill somebody is not a valid contract. The person who was being killed (unless it was assisted suicide which I support) had not agreed on that matter. We are obviously not talking about invalid contracts. We are talking about contracts in which all participants agree with what is written, spoken, or recorded. All of these should be enforced by the state Your assumption is that you know better about the needs of those involved than they do, which is quite elitist in my opinion, and something the social conservatives did with respect to gay marriage. It honestly isn't any of your business what two people voluntarily agree to do, as long as neither of them are coerced into doing it and they aren't affecting the rights of others.

 What if I want somebody besides my spouse to be the decision maker in the hospital, or I want somebody to be the decision-maker, but I don't want to marry them? What if I trust them to make the right decision more than my spouse? I know a particular case of a man who almost died because his wife was a Jehovah's Witness and his family had to bribe the doctors to actually give him a blood transfusion. If my spouse were a Jehovah's Witness (let's assume that would work lol) I would respect his beliefs, but I would also tell him that he can't make the decisions for me in the hospital, and I would want to change that. There should be a more versatile and less rigid legal framework here, and that is why it is argued that the state should not be involved (at least on the statutory end of things), because it just doesn't allow for that. It is far too rigid and inefficient.

The constitution fails to define "citizen" and that is the only place it is even used in the constitution. As far as De Jure citizenship goes, it did exist, as you noted with the Alien and Sedition acts, but defacto federal citizenship wasn't really a thing until the 14th amendment. Being a federal citizen really wasn't an issue and it meant very little until then. Nevertheless these acts were the actions of the federalists, and I generally have disdain for them as a party.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=citizen

Regardless of the U.S constitution, I don't believe in the concept of citizenship. All permanent/semi-permanent residents of a geographical region should have the ability to participate in the politics of said region (if politics are to exist.) That is only fair, as these politics affect all individuals in that region, regardless of their "citizenship.

There would be no such thing as deportation in an ideal world. People would be free to move to wherever they wish. However, I recognize that we don't live in an ideal world, and states like to limit migration and deport people. For that reason, reform of what is considered "marriage" would make this a non-issue. Any sui jurus marriage would be recognizable for grounds of a green card and eventually citizenship. In fact, this would prevent marriage fraud, where people say they are married when they are only statutorily married.