o_O.Q said:
back to one of your original claims - hitler was not a christian
he was tolerated by the church and vice versa because initially they were beneficial to each other http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/church_in_nazi_germany.htm "In 1933, the Catholic Church had viewed the Nazis as a barrier to the spread of communism from Russia. In this year, Hitler and the Catholic Church signed an agreement that he would not interfere with the Catholic Church while the Church would not comment on politics. However, this only lasted until 1937, when Hitler started a concerted attack on the Catholic Church arresting priests etc. In 1937, the pope, Pius XI, issued his "Mit brennender Sorge" statement ("With burning anxiety") over what was going on in Germany. However, there was never a total clampdown on the Catholic Church in Germany. It was a world-wide movement with much international support."
communism later successfully took over the church under the reign of angelo roncalli ( who was a rosicrucian ) or pope john XXIII when he called for a council between the church and russia
this is why we have church doctrine to this day changing to accept beliefs such as evolution because the chruch for a long time now has been intentionally subotaged with the ultimate goal to destroy everything the church stands for under the banner of "progressivism"
but what people are too stupid in this day to understand is that without god we have nothing, no creator endowed rights, no morality nothing... it will then be man that sets these things and if the men in charge are corrupt ( and they most certainly are as everyone is ) then the general public will face the consequences but anyway
anyone with the will to understand what's going on can look into these things
a popular nazi poem was that :
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/010/nazi.htm
i will repeat for one more time the sun worshippers of the past were esoterically atheists - the outer meaning was of course that they worshipped the sun but the hidden understanding was atheism - yes its complicated and does not make sense initially but it is the truth
"The Nazis may have marched into battle with "Gott mit uns" (God with us) as their motto, but their god was a pagan antichrist god, and they followed a false messiah, Adolf Hitler, and bowed down before idols of power, physical force and the dream of world domination by the Teutonic Master Race"
i disagree with this obviously their god was indeed lucifer ( the light bearer, the morning star, etc etc etc ) but to these people the esoteric or hidden understand is that lucifer is intellect which is where the story of the gerden of eden comes from
the nazis also changed chirstmas into a festival of light and pushed to make the summer and winter solstices holidays ( because again they were in fact sun worshippers )
he also replaced the bible with mein kampf and the examples go on and on and on
"You said all humanists are atheists. "
and they were initially which is what we have been talking about - the past and imo for all intents and purposes the same still applies now
"How about if you make a claim you back it up? I've provided you with evidence from multiple sources, none of which you'd been able to contradict. "
the claim was made of you calling hitler a christian and claiming he was motivated by christianity and i understood instantly why you would make such a claim
" It is perhaps the pinnacle of hypocrisy that you are complaining of an imaginary unfair generalization made about theists"
well i never did so because honestly many of those generalisations are factual but what i'm driving at here is that atheism is full of the same group think and lack of critical thinking... even more so because saying there is no god and denigrating religion seems to puff people up with some kind of ridiculous arrogance in my opinion of course
finally if you yourself do not understand the purpose of your movement and where its taking us then my friend i can't do much for you |
If you're trying to make people think, you're failing spectacularly.
You still have nothing that disputes that Hitler was a Christian. Nothing you've said here remotely relates to Hitler's philosophy or religion. Hitler did arrest priests. Absolutely. He also arrested atheists and shut down freethinkers hall, the most prominent gathering site of atheists. Hitler arrested or detained any people who opposed him, and since I'm guessing that most priests were decent enough people some of them opposed Hitler. However, there was never a widespread suppression of catholocism. But hey, even if it's not great support, it does get you a little closer. Although, even if Hitler did oppose the Catholic Church, which there is evidence that he did in many ways, that does not prove he wasn't a Christian, or that he was an atheist. After all, many Christians over the years have had disagreements with the church.
this is why we have church doctrine to this day changing to accept beliefs such as evolution because the chruch for a long time now has been intentionally subotaged with the ultimate goal to destroy everything the church stands for under the banner of "progressivism"
Wow. You make a halfway decent support of your argument, then you go right back into unsubstantiated nonsense. Anyway, this has nothing to do with whether Hitler was an atheist, and I'm not Catholic, so I don't care enough to argue. But again, it seems that you're just making your own decisions on what is right and holding things against your arbitrary standard. You're also attacking religions, something I still haven't done despite you accusing me of such. So, nice hypocrisy I guess.
but what people are too stupid in this day to understand is that without god we have nothing, no creator endowed rights, no morality nothing... it will then be man that sets these things and if the men in charge are corrupt ( and they most certainly are as everyone is ) then the general public will face the consequences but anyway
No, what people are too stupid to understand is that you need evidence to support yourself. Our data shows that secular societies score higher on every measure of societal health than comparable religious societies. I'm not going to get into this. Seriously, I don't know why you keep bringing up points that are completely irrelevant to the conversation. I really don't want to engage in any new topics. It's been work enough to dismantle the dumb arguments you've already laid out, so I'm not going to address any new topics. It's a baseless assertion, so until there is some evidence to support it, I don't need to bother with evidence to refute it.
"The time of the Cross has gone now,
The Sun Wheel shall arise,
And so, with God, we shall be free at last
And give our people their honour back"
i will repeat for one more time the sun worshippers of the past were esoterically atheists - the outer meaning was of course that they worshipped the sun but the hidden understanding was atheism - yes its complicated and does not make sense initially but it is the truth
The source you provided, as suspect as I find in considering its evangelical nature, does not propose that Hitler was an atheism. It claims that Hitler has perverted Christianity, surely an argument one could make reasonably. They further claim that Hitler supported paganism, a claim I'm more skeptical of them. But whoever wrote the piece was at least intelligent enough to know the difference between paganism and atheism, and they do not conflate them. The other soure, the book, is using the poem as evidence of the role the clergy played in supporting the Nazi movement. They do claim the priests have an errant view of Christianity, but never makes the claim they are atheists.
"The Nazis may have marched into battle with "Gott mit uns" (God with us) as their motto, but their god was a pagan antichrist god, and they followed a false messiah, Adolf Hitler, and bowed down before idols of power, physical force and the dream of world domination by the Teutonic Master Race"
"You said all humanists are atheists. "
and they were initially which is what we have been talking about - the past and imo for all intents and purposes the same still applies now
Awwwww... and I actually gave you a shred of credit for realizing how stupid that statement was and going back on it. I got a good chuckle out of this, so thanks for that at least.
"You said ALL humanists are atheists"
no i didn't at any time post that quote where i've done so
When I initially made that claim, you denied it. And when I pointed out that you can even follow your own line of nonsense, you said.
all right fair enough i was thinking of its origins but i will gladly admit that i was wrong to post that
So you already admitted you were wrong about that. And once you did, I let it go. So now you are trying to defend something that you yourself admitted was wrong. Your arguments are so laughably bad that not even you agree with them. And you accused me of changing definitions... lulz.
Even if you were right, and I've showed that the Humanist manifesto was started by theists and non-theists. If we're going by the "in the past" argument, then that is so retarded I have no idea how to respond. Christianity came from Judaism. So does that mean you consider Jews as Christians? Are Germans still Nazis? Do you still refer to Pakistan as India? Do you realize that things change over time? Assuming a Christian today believes the same thing a Christian 1000 years ago did would be stupid. Your shit was food just a day ago, but I'm fairly sure you wouldn't eat it.
So what is it? Are humanists all atheists or not? Since I'm probably not going to waste any more of my time, I'll just give you a response either way.
If you say yes, that's idiotic.
If you say no, congratulations on showing yourself to be in possession of a brain.
And again, you've managed to define everyone by your bizarre standards. Doesn't matter what humanist organizations say, doesn't matter what the dictionary says, doesn't matter what humanists who are Christians say. You've made the decision for them. Such arrogance coming from such a poor mind. As frustrating as it is to have so much stupid flung at me, I am at least amused by the irony.
the claim was made of you calling hitler a christian and claiming he was motivated by christianity and i understood instantly why you would make such a claim
Lol. I'm not sure how you "understood instantly why I would make such a claim" when I never made that claim. I claimed that there is nothing to suggest Except I never said either of those things. Seriously, learn to read, especially since you've tried to insult my reading skills several times.
I never said Hitler was a Christian. What I said was that there is no evidence to suggest Hitler was an atheist.
If you can find anywhere where I said that Hitler was a Christian, I'll give you a thousand dollars. I'm totally not kidding. Look over every single post, and if you can find me claiming that Hitler was a Christian, I'll make a paypal transfer of 1000 dollars. (I may have said most likely at one point) This is btw the 14th time you've claimed I said something I didn't say, and you have not been able to back yourself up any time. Here is what I did say.
"Hitler was very clearly not a humanist, and we have no evidence to suggest he was an atheist. In any public statement Hitler ever made, he adhered to Christianity. He argued for religious instruction, had close ties with the catholic church, had a large personal library of books regarding Jesus which were all well worn."
That is quite different from the words you're trying to shove into my mouth. I'm smart enough to know when I have evidence enough to make a definitive claim or not. That's why I never said Hitler was a Christian. I said we have a good deal of evidence to suggest it, and we certainly do, but I do not have enough evidence to say "Hitler was a Christian". You on the other hand, are not smart enough to realize when you have enough evidence to make a claim, and therefore spew inane nonsense.
And that is entirely true. At this point it's not surprising to me that you would make up strawmen arguments, because that's pretty much all you've done. Hell, you can't even keep up with what you've said, so how can you keep track of what I've said.
And just for fun, here is what you said.
as i conceded yes he appears to be associated with christianity in various ways but as i said there is also various evidence that the movement was inspired by an older religion
Protip: When you don't even agree with youself in a debate, it's time to give it up.
well i never did so because honestly many of those generalisations are factual but what i'm driving at here is that atheism is full of the same group think and lack of critical thinking... even more so because saying there is no god and denigrating religion seems to puff people up with some kind of ridiculous arrogance in my opinion of course
Well, you finally did it. You were close to it this whole time, but you finally actually made me laugh out loud. :) I mean, I linked you to the sweeping generalization fallacy for a third time, but that would seem a waste at this point.
Now, as an intelligent person, I try to make as few generalizations as possible. Obviously, it is sometimes necessary, but it is to be avoided when possible. That is why, as you'll noticed, I never once made a generalization about theists or any group. Because, and I'm going to bold this because it is important, generalizations are the cause of things like racism, discrimination, and genocide. Thinking that all members of a particular group are the same is the basis of discriminating. And this dude's going to then call me arrogant. Lol. You got balls man. Not brains, but balls.
finally if you yourself do not understand the purpose of your movement and where its taking us then my friend i can't do much for you
You just called me arrogant, then you tell me what I think. I'm not a part of any movement. I simply don't believe in a god. I don't really give a fuck whether or not you believe in a god. If there is a movement I'm a part of, it's called the anti-nonsense movement. When people spout out nonsense, especially about me, I set them straight
Now, you've accused atheists of having a hive mind, and I can figure out why you think so. Because you have decided in advance what everyone believes, and if they go against that, you just claim they're lying. Hitler says he's a Christian? Lying (possible). Atheists say they don't claim god doesn't exist? Liars. (less likely lying) Christians claim themselves to be humanists? Liars. Webster claims atheism is the lack of belief in deities? Liars.
You decided I feel a certain way of thinking because I'm part of an atheist hive mind. And when I say I think differently, you simply claim I'm lying, because my statement goes against your hive mind claim. If you ignore all the evidence against your claims, you'll always be right. In your own mind at least. To everyone else, you'll just be illogical, disrespectful, and dishonest.
i came back here to clarify some things because people need to understand that the wrong ideas about history are being propagated whether you yourself can accept or not is your decision but if this inspires just one person to take the time to consider what is going on i'll be satisfied
