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JWeinCom said:
o_O.Q said:

or perhaps saying that christians are essentially pagans as you have been saying; any christians reading that would be appauled that you could suggest something like that... i would think that this should make it evident that things are not always so black and white when we are talking about the origins of these concepts but i guess that some people cannot grasp this

Can you please show me where I've said that Christians are essentially pagans?  If you cannot, please apologize for lying.  I don't appreciate being misrepresented.


"why do you think he would narrow the group of human beings he considered worthwhile to one subsection and eliminate the rest while speaking of a super race?

as i said it was about survival of the group of humans his ideology chose as the fittest - the aryans

the aryans were chosen as the group of humans fit for the evolutionary leap to the next stage whereas the rest would be eliminated... to ultimately wipe out the portions of the human race they considered to be less advanced leaving only the aryans

lol do you think he just got up one day and came up with this bullshit arbitrarily with no purpose? what did you think his purpose was?

oh here we go just found this article on it : http://www.creationism.org/csshs/v08n3p24.htm"

Once upon a time there were happy groups of people called the gypsies, the gays, the mentally disabled and the Jews.  Everyone was just lovely to them, and they were never ever ever the subject of violence or discrimination.  Then, Dawin wrote a book, and all of the sudden everyone hated them!

Is that what you're suggesting happened?  Every group of people Hitler persecuted was persecuted long before Darwin.  And again, I fail to see what Darwin has to do with Atheism.   Believing in evolution does not prevent you from belieing in god.  See for example, the pope.

Oh, and do you notices how your source does not include any direct quotes, any laws (like the ones regarding the banning of books on evolution), or anything close to primary evidence?  Their speculation is no better than yours without evidence. And, I'm somewhat dubious of a site called creationism.org providing a balanced view.  Speaking of evidence, have some more.

"We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."


- Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP)

Adolf Hitler: I am a Catholic

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.

- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941
Adolf Hitler: Religious Life as the Highest and Most Desirable Ideal
I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 1
Adolf Hitler: Personification of the Devil
....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.

- Adolf Hitler (following the position of Martin Luther), Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
Adolf Hitler: Christians Should Deal with Atheistic Jews
And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation.
 - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
And, let's also have some quotes regarding atheism, shall we?                   
By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values. The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. ...

- Adolf Hitler, speech before the Reichstag, March 23, 1933, just before the Enabling Act is passed.
Of course, I'm not going to say that Hitler is always an honest guy, but when you look at the fact that he opposed freethought organizations, insisted on religious instruction in school, formed close alliances with the Vatican, and never spoke against Jesus in one recorded instance, you get a pretty solid argument for him being a christian.  So, if you're going to disprove this, you need some actual evidence. 

"Yeah, I'm totally unfamilar with this.  Source?"


"this is a fairly concise article about it  : http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/galleryg/id6.html"

The only thing the article says is that Hitler "bought it". It's interesting, but it needs far more research to support that claim.  Which again, has no bearing on atheism.

agreed and i did not at any time state that they did the ideas i posted there come from the ideology that hitler was following

Your quote seemed to suggest that Darwinism had to be the source of Hitler's ideas because there was no other logical source.  If I misinterpreted you, then my bad.

 

"well if i interpreted you correctly that is nonsense no other race outside of the aryan race was going to be left it wasn't just about destroying the jews as you seem to believe"

There is really no evidence of that in his actions.  He thought that the Aryan race should rule over others, but he only actively sought to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, the mentally disabled, and gay people.  Even prisoners of war were not killed.

 well good now you know then that you can't take what he said about every aspect of himself at face value

as i demonstrated the swastika and the sun disk go way back before hitler he just adopted them with the beliefs that fueled his movement whether you are willing to accept that or not is not my concern the point is that this is reality

 I already explained about why that symbol was chosen, and that, while it is certainly a pagan symbol, it does not necessarily indicate belief in paganism.  Please stop ripping my quotes out of their context.

"EVERY person was an atheist when they were born."

no that is not true... no one has knowledge of any concepts when they are born meaning they could not possess the concept that there is no god.

What you are describing is not atheism, it is antitheism.  Antitheis is the belief that there is no god.  Atheism is not believing in ny deities.  A baby doesn't have a knowledge of the concept of god, and therefore they do not believe there is a god or any other deity.  This is what atheism is.  It is not believing there is no god (antitheism) it is simply not believing there is a god.

"Atheism cannot be passed on, because there is no such thing as an "atheist belief.""

i thought atheism was the belief that there is no god... how is that not a belief?

That's not what atheism is.  Atheists do not as a rule believe "There is no god".  They believe " I am not convinced there is a god".

Suppose you read an E3 rumor that Shenmue 3 was in development and would be announced at E3, and you said, "I don't know.  I guess I'll wait for E3 to see."  That is the type of attitude an atheist has towards god.  You don't necessarily reject the notion that there is a god (although some might as you can be both an atheist and an antitheist), but you are not convinced by the evidence that there is one.

it all springs from the same root as you mentioned earlier with christianity and paganism 

I didn't mention that... you did...

"edit: i'd also add that catholicism was a perversion of the old christian religion because it was combined with pagan beliefs to produce one religion for  both groups of people"

In the Roman empire, paganism was replaced by Christianity due to the rule of emperor Constantine, who began to enforce Christian doctrine in about 300 AD.  Not because paganism is an extention of Christianity or vice versa.

"let me put it this way if there was not a degree of cultural acceptance for atheism i'm sure you wouldn't be an atheist but because the strangle hold on ideas that religion once had has loosened now people are adopting other belief systems"

I might not express that I'm an atheist, but I would likely still be one, assuming I had access to the same level of information.

"my point is that the precedent had to be set first and that the precedent came out of the old religions that i mentioned earlier since they were once the dominant templates of thought"

I understand the individual words here, but I don't understand how they fit together.  Are you trying to say that because the precedent of atheism came from paganism (which you didn't prove at all but w/e) anyone who is an atheist is a pagan?  If so, then what you're saying is stupid.  If you're trying to say something less stupid, then my apologies.

and that bit is not in question any historian will tell you for example that sun worship was the dominant religion in egypt for most of its reign

I don't know anything about ancient Egypt's religion, I don't care to know more at this moment, and I don't see how it relates to this topic.

as it is defined now yes but it should have been clear that i was speaking of its origins or where it came from or how the precedent was set initially

Which has nothing to do with Hitler being an atheist. I'm going to do this in caps because it is important to derail this line of nonsense.

EVEN IF YOU WERE ABLE TO SHOW THAT ATHEISM NATURALLY FOLLOWS PAGANISM, WHICH YOU DID NOT DO, THAT DOESN'T MAKE PAGANS ATHEISTS.  CHRISTIANITY IS AN EXTENSION OF JUDAISM, BUT THAT DOESN"T MAKE THE POPE JEWISH. 

you mentioned before that christianity now accepts evolution, a few years ago that was not the case but we still call it christianity then as we do now

Reading is fundamental.  I did not say that Christianity accepted evolution.  I said that a Christian CAN accept evolution, and that the Catholic Church DOES accept evolution.  This does not mean that Christians or Christianity or even Catholics accept it as a rule. 

ideas are shaped by the era that they are present in

Which has nothing to do with the topic.


I am seriously and utterly confused as to what point you're trying to make.  Anything resembling an argument is now adrift in a see on non-sequitors, speculation, and unintelligible babble.  Are you saying Hitler was an atheist or a pagan?  Are you trying to say that atheists are pagans?  Are you trying to say that not believing in deities is related to worshipping the sun (which by the way would be neopaganism, and not paganism)?

 

 

 

 

Let's make this really simple.  Your original claim was that Hitler was an atheist.  I presented plenty of evidence that goes against that fact, (and then you went on some kind of rant about paganism).  Do you have any evidence to suggest Hitler was an atheist or were you simply talking out of your ass with the kind of nonsense that creationists tend to use (not saying you're a creationist but it's a common and flawed creationist argument)?

So, if you have any evidence that Hitler was an atheist, as per our current meaning of the word, present it.  If not, then I'll consider my point sufficiently made and be on my merry way.

 

"Can you please show me where I've said that Christians are essentially pagans?  "

"Paganism was generally incorporated into the Catholic Church. " i will concede though that i was a bit extreme with that post but you are basically saying here that the church is preaching paganism which is the truth

 

" Then, Dawin wrote a book, and all of the sudden everyone hated them! Is that what you're suggesting happened? "

no if i had meant to say that i would have posted that what i said is that the movement's goal was based on evolution and i've realised that again you've ommited the fact that it was not just these people but all people outside of the aryan race

its why eugnenics sprang up at this time because only the fit would be allowed to survive

" he only actively sought to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, the mentally disabled, and gay people.  Even prisoners of war were not killed."

the people he left alive were those who fit his standard for being aryan ( his enemies were generally similar in appearance to his people anyway ) everyone else was killed

 

"Your quote seemed to suggest that Darwinism had to be the source of Hitler's ideas "

the concept of evolution existed before darwin... it existed as almost all beliefs have previously in one of the older religions and again this is where the movement pulled their inspiration

 

" I already explained about why that symbol was chosen, and that, while it is certainly a pagan symbol, it does not necessarily indicate belief in paganism.  Please stop ripping my quotes out of their context."

i didn't take your quote out of context when i said that you seemed to believe that hitler came up with it one day while daydreaming you replied that this is what happened due to what was said in his book

therefore if you acknowledge that it is indeed an ancient symbol then you were wrong and hitler was lying

 

"What you are describing is not atheism, it is antitheism."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism "the doctrine or belief that there is no God."

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/atheism "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism "a disbelief in the existence of deity the doctrine that there is no deity"

 

it would appear to me that you don't even understand yourself what you religion is all about

i suppose atheist in the past few years have begun to realise that it makes them look ridiculously stupid to form an ideology around such a stupid claim and have tried to rebrand it but the definition remains the same

this relates back to what i said about ideologies having different goals at different times or eras here you have a perfect example


"I didn't mention that... you did..."
yes my mistake 
" Are you trying to say that because the precedent of atheism came from paganism (which you didn't prove at all but w/e) anyone who is an atheist is a pagan? "
what i'm saying is that all the ideologies that we practice today come down from ideologies that came before us an only an idiot would believe otherwise
atheism for example did not just start a few decades ago it has been a thing for eons, whether you believe that or not is up to you
i suppose you believe that because scientist of our era started experimenting with the environment more and gained what we consider now to be a greater understanding that atheism arose naturally as a result well lol that's not the case at all 


"EVEN IF YOU WERE ABLE TO SHOW THAT ATHEISM NATURALLY FOLLOWS PAGANISM, WHICH YOU DID NOT DO, THAT DOESN'T MAKE PAGANS ATHEISTS.  "

and i did not make that claim what i claimed is that in the case of hitler's movement the pagan religion they drew inspiration from was atheistic
"  I did not say that Christianity accepted evolution.  I said that a Christian CAN accept evolution, and that the Catholic Church DOES accept evolution. "
i should have typed catholicism but my point remains which you can't seem to address

"ideas are shaped by the era that they are present in

Which has nothing to do with the topic."

 

actually it has everything to do with this and you amusingly helped to prove my point within this post when you tried to rebrand atheism

this site explains some of what i've been trying to convey to you

http://www.aldhiaa.com/english/book/book/Philosophy_and_irfan_library/books/global_freemasonry/005.html

 

i should clarify though that i have been conflating humanism and atheism throughout my post because ultimately i don't think any sensible person can deny that they are very similar in terms of the disbelief in god

but anyway both beliefs arose out of ancient religions anyone who is interested in finding out can do so... scientist of our current era did not magically come up with these ideas one day