o_O.Q said:
or perhaps saying that christians are essentially pagans as you have been saying; any christians reading that would be appauled that you could suggest something like that... i would think that this should make it evident that things are not always so black and white when we are talking about the origins of these concepts but i guess that some people cannot grasp this
Can you please show me where I've said that Christians are essentially pagans? If you cannot, please apologize for lying. I don't appreciate being misrepresented.
"why do you think he would narrow the group of human beings he considered worthwhile to one subsection and eliminate the rest while speaking of a super race?
as i said it was about survival of the group of humans his ideology chose as the fittest - the aryans
the aryans were chosen as the group of humans fit for the evolutionary leap to the next stage whereas the rest would be eliminated... to ultimately wipe out the portions of the human race they considered to be less advanced leaving only the aryans
lol do you think he just got up one day and came up with this bullshit arbitrarily with no purpose? what did you think his purpose was?
oh here we go just found this article on it : http://www.creationism.org/csshs/v08n3p24.htm"
Once upon a time there were happy groups of people called the gypsies, the gays, the mentally disabled and the Jews. Everyone was just lovely to them, and they were never ever ever the subject of violence or discrimination. Then, Dawin wrote a book, and all of the sudden everyone hated them!
Is that what you're suggesting happened? Every group of people Hitler persecuted was persecuted long before Darwin. And again, I fail to see what Darwin has to do with Atheism. Believing in evolution does not prevent you from belieing in god. See for example, the pope.
Oh, and do you notices how your source does not include any direct quotes, any laws (like the ones regarding the banning of books on evolution), or anything close to primary evidence? Their speculation is no better than yours without evidence. And, I'm somewhat dubious of a site called creationism.org providing a balanced view. Speaking of evidence, have some more.
"We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."
- Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP)
Adolf Hitler: I am a Catholic
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941
Adolf Hitler: Religious Life as the Highest and Most Desirable Ideal
I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 1
Adolf Hitler: Personification of the Devil
....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
- Adolf Hitler (following the position of Martin Luther), Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
Adolf Hitler: Christians Should Deal with Atheistic Jews
And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
And, let's also have some quotes regarding atheism, shall we?
By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values. The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. ...
- Adolf Hitler, speech before the Reichstag, March 23, 1933, just before the Enabling Act is passed.
Of course, I'm not going to say that Hitler is always an honest guy, but when you look at the fact that he opposed freethought organizations, insisted on religious instruction in school, formed close alliances with the Vatican, and never spoke against Jesus in one recorded instance, you get a pretty solid argument for him being a christian. So, if you're going to disprove this, you need some actual evidence.
"Yeah, I'm totally unfamilar with this. Source?"
"this is a fairly concise article about it : http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/galleryg/id6.html"
The only thing the article says is that Hitler "bought it". It's interesting, but it needs far more research to support that claim. Which again, has no bearing on atheism.
agreed and i did not at any time state that they did the ideas i posted there come from the ideology that hitler was following
Your quote seemed to suggest that Darwinism had to be the source of Hitler's ideas because there was no other logical source. If I misinterpreted you, then my bad.
"well if i interpreted you correctly that is nonsense no other race outside of the aryan race was going to be left it wasn't just about destroying the jews as you seem to believe"
There is really no evidence of that in his actions. He thought that the Aryan race should rule over others, but he only actively sought to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, the mentally disabled, and gay people. Even prisoners of war were not killed.
well good now you know then that you can't take what he said about every aspect of himself at face value
as i demonstrated the swastika and the sun disk go way back before hitler he just adopted them with the beliefs that fueled his movement whether you are willing to accept that or not is not my concern the point is that this is reality
I already explained about why that symbol was chosen, and that, while it is certainly a pagan symbol, it does not necessarily indicate belief in paganism. Please stop ripping my quotes out of their context.
"EVERY person was an atheist when they were born."
no that is not true... no one has knowledge of any concepts when they are born meaning they could not possess the concept that there is no god.
What you are describing is not atheism, it is antitheism. Antitheis is the belief that there is no god. Atheism is not believing in ny deities. A baby doesn't have a knowledge of the concept of god, and therefore they do not believe there is a god or any other deity. This is what atheism is. It is not believing there is no god (antitheism) it is simply not believing there is a god.
"Atheism cannot be passed on, because there is no such thing as an "atheist belief.""
i thought atheism was the belief that there is no god... how is that not a belief?
That's not what atheism is. Atheists do not as a rule believe "There is no god". They believe " I am not convinced there is a god".
Suppose you read an E3 rumor that Shenmue 3 was in development and would be announced at E3, and you said, "I don't know. I guess I'll wait for E3 to see." That is the type of attitude an atheist has towards god. You don't necessarily reject the notion that there is a god (although some might as you can be both an atheist and an antitheist), but you are not convinced by the evidence that there is one.
it all springs from the same root as you mentioned earlier with christianity and paganism
I didn't mention that... you did...
"edit: i'd also add that catholicism was a perversion of the old christian religion because it was combined with pagan beliefs to produce one religion for both groups of people"
In the Roman empire, paganism was replaced by Christianity due to the rule of emperor Constantine, who began to enforce Christian doctrine in about 300 AD. Not because paganism is an extention of Christianity or vice versa.
"let me put it this way if there was not a degree of cultural acceptance for atheism i'm sure you wouldn't be an atheist but because the strangle hold on ideas that religion once had has loosened now people are adopting other belief systems"
I might not express that I'm an atheist, but I would likely still be one, assuming I had access to the same level of information.
"my point is that the precedent had to be set first and that the precedent came out of the old religions that i mentioned earlier since they were once the dominant templates of thought"
I understand the individual words here, but I don't understand how they fit together. Are you trying to say that because the precedent of atheism came from paganism (which you didn't prove at all but w/e) anyone who is an atheist is a pagan? If so, then what you're saying is stupid. If you're trying to say something less stupid, then my apologies.
and that bit is not in question any historian will tell you for example that sun worship was the dominant religion in egypt for most of its reign
I don't know anything about ancient Egypt's religion, I don't care to know more at this moment, and I don't see how it relates to this topic.
as it is defined now yes but it should have been clear that i was speaking of its origins or where it came from or how the precedent was set initially
Which has nothing to do with Hitler being an atheist. I'm going to do this in caps because it is important to derail this line of nonsense.
EVEN IF YOU WERE ABLE TO SHOW THAT ATHEISM NATURALLY FOLLOWS PAGANISM, WHICH YOU DID NOT DO, THAT DOESN'T MAKE PAGANS ATHEISTS. CHRISTIANITY IS AN EXTENSION OF JUDAISM, BUT THAT DOESN"T MAKE THE POPE JEWISH.
you mentioned before that christianity now accepts evolution, a few years ago that was not the case but we still call it christianity then as we do now
Reading is fundamental. I did not say that Christianity accepted evolution. I said that a Christian CAN accept evolution, and that the Catholic Church DOES accept evolution. This does not mean that Christians or Christianity or even Catholics accept it as a rule.
ideas are shaped by the era that they are present in
Which has nothing to do with the topic.
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