RolStoppable said:
spemanig said:
I think Just Dance was the exception rather than the proving point. It's a very particular type of game that didn't exist in it's form until motion controls, and has since tapered off. In a system where every game requires those controls, you need more than the diminshing success of one franchise on one platform to prove that they aren't undesirable.
The combat in SS sucked because of the motion controls as a whole, not simply because of their "puzzle" aspects. The motion controls on TP suffered much of the same issues without the puzzle aspects to the combat.
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Feel free to list the motion control games that came out in 2010 and afterwards. My point was that interest in motion controls diminished due to the lack of games.
Nuvendil said:
Just because Nintendo also made that falacious assumption of causation does not make it correct.
I would strongly disagree with your final paragraph. The controller is one of the smallest reasons for the Wii U's failure. I can say that with a fair degree of certainty, because one of the biggest - if not THE biggest - factors in success or failure in a competative market is image. The Wii U and the GameCube had absolutely atrocious management of their marketing and image. And the Wii U is the worse of the two. Compare the Wii's launch ad campaign to the Wii U's. Compare the Wii's first year ad campaigns to the Wii U's. While the Wii had a campaign that made the device cool and appealing, the Wii U's made it confusing and embarrassing. The Wii U could have been the greatest console ever made, the marketing still would have hamstrung it. Because those who don't market, don't succeed. I can also say the controller is a small issue because the majority of the market that is still interested in consoles use dual analogue controls all the time, so it's not like that's a major issue. And before you say that Nintendo is targeting a different audience, let me just say that their launch ads targeted a frankly non-existent audience; the Pitch commercial with the kids appeals to neither adults nor kids and the launch campaign itself was an incredibly generic and confusing mess.
Also, you bring up Just Dance but that's the problem right there. THAT is the image of motion controls: supplemental party games. That and shovel ware. A console built around motion controls is going to be tainted by that image. The Wii benefited greatly from the "cool new tech" effect. Much like the Kinect did afterward. And much like VR seems to be doing now. But motion controls are everywhere now, they're old news. The cool new tech efffect is gone, now it's all down to what people think of motion controls. And what people think is party games and shovelware. And you can't sell a console to the current market (the people interested in dedicated hardware) with that image attached to it.
And as a final note, you are not looking at the big picture for the GameCube or Wii U. I already touched on this a bit, but it warrants restating. The GameCube and Wii U from the very start were doomed to at best a weak start and at worst a complete failure. A weak launch lineup, marketing funded by the change under the couch cushions (and directed by an intern apparently), unappealing design visually, lack of third party support (for different reasons), the list goes on and on. The controller is the very least of Nintendo's problems. They have a host of other issues holding them back and until they fix that, it doesn't really matter what they do with their hardware.
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The Wii was cool, that made it easy to market. The main problem for the Wii U is that it was never a compelling product to begin with.
The image you talk about is the one that is projected by hardcore gamers. The same people that will always say that everything Nintendo does is crap. You are right, Nintendo can't sell a console to that current market, but they don't need to. There are plenty of other people on this planet.
The controller is part of the unappealing visual design of the console.
Anyway, I know that none of the three people who quoted me (potentially more by the time I hit the submit button) will agree with me here, so this is basically the point where I once again find solace in the fact that Nintendo has already decided that their ninth generation hardware won't be an attempt to sell to the current market, and that Iwata doesn't think that marketing has been their biggest problem for both, the console and its games.
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See, this is where I fundamentally disagree with most people including Nintendo themselves. I look at their IP library and they have the guns to take on any contender you name. It's entirely possible to reinvent a corporate image. Products are harder to do since the products are physical, tangible things and the current ones on the market won't magically change. A company, as far as public perception is concerned, is just an entity, an image in a commercial set. With the right ad team, Nintendo could roll in guns blazing and win over a lot of people. You give Nintendo the marketing calibur of Sony and you would have a true battle on your hands between those two companies.
As for there being "plenty of people on the planet," that's all well and good but how many people are intersted in *dedicated* hardware. And I think Nintendo recognizes the issue, that they can't count on the many millions who abandoned dedicated hardware after one gen in that market to just come back for NX. NX will be unique, I have no dobut, but I seriously think they will be contending for that more core market, just not in the exact same way. The next gen will feature further segregation of the core, casual, and handheld markets at Nintendo. Their mobile division will target the "casuals" who don't give two craps about dedicated hardware, NX will target the core crowd, and the handheld will target the usual handheld owners. How they accomplish this, who knows. But I think you can bet on an augmentation rather than reinvention approach. The Wii had it's cool moments, but they recognized right quick the limitations that it imposed.
