spyro, crash and co.

[Cloudman]

spemanig said:

See, I don't agree that it has anything to do with their goals. The difference is that every element in Mario Galaxy expertly works towards making the platforming as tight as possible. With the 3D Sonic games, all of that was done poorly, and elements like the homing attack were added as duck tape to haphazardly fix bad systems.

The reason why skillfully trying to bounce off of enemies while maintaing a fast speed wouldn't work in almost every Sonic game is because the controls, physics, level design, enemy design, and enemy placement are specifically and painstakingly made with the single perpose of making that not only possible, but fun. When Mario 64 was made, the first thing they did was put Mario in a room an made sure it felt good to jump. Nothing like that has been done in 3D Sonic, definitely not until Lost World, and like we've both said; even that can be improved.

A common argument is that these games were great "for their time" and shouldn't be judged by todays standards. That's flat out wrong. If a game doesn't hold up today, it was never good to begin with. ALttP wasn't just great "for it's time." OoT wasn't just great "for it's time." Mario 64, Super Metroid, Star Fox 64, F-Zero X, SotN, Tekken, Street Fighter 2, and Sonic 3 weren't just great "for their time." They were always, and will always be great, regardless of time and regardless of better games that may have come out after. Good games are timeless. There were enough good 3D platformers at the time to tell the difference between the good and the bad.

I wasn't saying that you're stuck in a ball in 2D Sonics. I was saying that while you're a ball, you're commited to the different physics that being a ball would naturally entail.

In regards to the comparison to Mario Galaxy and 3D Sonic games, Ninten has worked with Mario since 64 to make the controls and platforming to be as perfect as possible, which made for such tight controls for the next Mario games to follow. With Sonic games,  SEGA went wild, trying out all sorts of crazy things, from fairy tale stories to Unleashed to Sonic Heroes, and so on, sacrificing them the chance to make a more refined, excellent system for Sonic. I think despite its flaws, at least SA1 was a right step in getting Sonic into 3D. That first stage on the beach to me felt like a good way to adjust moving Sonic in 3D and get a feel of the controls. That's how I feel at least.

I didn't mean that games like SA1 shouldn't be judged by today's standards. By all means, they should be! It's good to tear games apart to see what really worked and what just doesn't. I do feel that some games may have been good "at the time", but that may be due to nostalgia or people played them at a young age, like I did with them. I do need to revisit those games now, haha. That's a good way of defining a 'good' game. Most of those games you listed are ones I played and agree those games still hold up today.

And my mistake on that last part.