What conventions would you like to see changed in Zelda U?

[Frogger]

the_dengle said:

spemanig said:

No it's not 5 minutes here and five minutes there. Those five minutes are the largest amount of time you'll be pushing blocks in any dungeon in zelda 1 by far.

I don't care if you don't consider those things puzzles. I do and I want them out of Zelda because they weren't like that in the first one. They aren't fun. It's mundane and it limits the dungeon design. You don't need context sensitive item puzzles to have an adventure feel in a dungeon. Like Aonuma said in his quote where he suggested that puzzles wouldn't be in the next Zelda, it should be about taking the experiences you've had playing the game, and using them to explore further. That shouldn't be tied to items. This old games are great at encouraging exploration, and they don't resort to this stupid dungeon gimmicks that's zelda has been resorting to. I don't think that the block pushing in Zelda 1 are the highlight of those games either, but recent Zelda games take that to an unbearable level. There's nothing wrong with encouraging curiosity, but those puzzles don't encourage curiosity. There's no curiosity to be found in the expected.

The dungeons are for trials. The adventure is for adventuring. You are obviously supposed to be exploring the dungeon, but the dungeon are supposed to challenge your skill. Again, the souls games do a fantastic job of being so close to exactly what Zelda dungeons should be. A trial. You go adventuring, you find a dungeon, you are tested vigorously, youre awarded, and then you are relieved that you're out of the dungeon. It shouldn't be a fun little stroll where you are snapping ropes with Beatles.

But I wasn't talking about just pushing blocks. It's all of the things the game does to slow the player down in ways that don't add content. Like the rupee grind I mentioned, and the fact that you always respawn with 3 hearts.

They aren't "like that" in the first one because the first one sucks. They are all pushing random blocks until one moves and bombing random walls with no indication of which walls are bombable (thus requiring you to waste all of your bombs trying every wall and, go figure, wasting your rupees restocking on bombs). It doesn't limit the dungeon design, it is the dungeon design. Because the first game's dungeons are a bunch of awful attempts at design scattered around a bunch of rooms full of enemies that die in one hit.

You are simply wrong about Zelda. The Souls games aren't even adventure games, they're action/RPGs and they don't have dungeons at all. You simply want Zelda to be something it is not, and never has been. I'm not making this stuff up. The creator of the series, director, producer, and designer of your beloved Zelda 1, defines Zelda as the experience of cutting a sign and seeing it floating in the water. Interacting with the world in a non-challenging way and being pleasantly surprised by the results. These are the feelings of the artist, and you are telling Picasso to be more like Da Vinci.

I hope you eventually accept that The Legend of Zelda is not the game you want it to be, and that's not a bad thing. If you want to play Dark Souls, play Dark Souls. Or keep playing games you consider mundane and not fun and insisting they should be more like the very very first game that came out in the series, 30 years ago, a game that is actually very manipulative and poorly designed in hindsight.

You throw around words like "experiences" and "explore," but I don't think you recognize their meaning. What kind of experiences will you have playing Zelda that will allow you to explore further? Combat experiences? And what does exploring mean? Merely moving to a different area and observing it?

You will explore the world by interacting with it, as has always been the case in Zelda. Just like the water fruit in Skyward Sword. How do you explore the deeper parts of the sixth dungeon? By stabbing water fruits and flinging them at things -- this is how you fight the mini-boss, too! And what experiences did you have while playing the game earlier that helped you learn this? Stabbing pumpkins and flinging them off of Skyloft.

It's always obvious where to bomb walls. The map indicates that clearly, and the walls make a different sound when you hit it with a sword. It's literally designed that way to make you want to explore the dungeon an find shortcuts through it. The dungeon designs in Zelda 1 do more to match the way you're supposed to feel in Zelda than any of the games since have done, barring Zelda 2. The dungeons in Zelda 1 were clearly primative to what a Zelda game of today should be, the same way its overworld was. Zelda Wii U's overworld was inspired by the openess and freedom experienced in Zelda 1. It's not a 1-1 replica. It's an update of that formula, and Zelda Wii U's dungeons should be just that, an update to that formula. Dark Souls is that update.

You're the one who's wrong about Zelda. Miyamoto created Zelda through the experience of exploring caves as a child. Theres a fear of the unknown, and a bravery, and a perserverence to doing something like that. That's not reflected at all with how Zelda dungeons are designed today and the new head of Zelda seems to feel the same way, if he really does intend to remove puzzles from Zelda games like he's basically said he would. It may not be dark souls yet, but it's one hell of a start.

Of course Dark Souls isn't an exploration game. It does have exploring, though, and it does have dungeons, and you are exploring those dungeons. Just because you aren't using a boomerang to hit switches doesn't mean it isn't a dungeon. I don't want Zelda U to be Dark Souls, I want the dungeons in Zelda U to feel like the dungeons, and heck everything, in Dark Souls. That's how dungeons used to feel, that's how they are supposed to feel, and that is half of why Zelda is even a relevant franchise today. I won't get the experience I want from Zelda U by "just playing Dark Souls." 

You did more than just fight in Zelda 1 dungeons. The entire point is that you go in them feeling lost, and you have you find your way to the end by putting the peices together. You absolutely needed a map in the original Zelda. You needed to plan where you wanted to go. You don't need a map in modern Zelda dungeons. Not even in intricate ones like the water temple. It's just a linear progression of puzzles. You aren't exploring. You're being taken on a pleasant tour. You're not getting lost and finding your way. There's no sence of danger or adventure to the new dungeons. They are beautiful, and they have great music, and yet they are relentlessly predictable. And there are obviously exceptions for every dungeon. There are moments where you feel free, but they are fleeting and often feel accidental.

All I'm doing is telling Picasso to stop painting like Da Vinci. Nothing I've said regarding the dungeon structure conflicts with Miyamoto's views of Zelda. Cutting a sign and seeing it float isn't the same as shooting an arrow at an eye to move a platform.