| DrDoomz said: 1. Try not to rewrite the narrative of the debate pls. My initial response to you was due to this question that you asked:
Which is essentially asking what the primary cause was. So please let's not play the "you omitted" BS game here. That's just bad debating form. |
Yes, it's a question I asked before you decided to walk away and break off the discussion as the post below demonstrates.
| DrDoomz said: Wow. You seemed to be determined to blame the victim here. Not really sure if there's any point talking to you.... Coroner > your opinion. Sticking with that, shaking my head and walking away before this gets retarded... |
After breaking off the discussion, you make a stand-alone post to which I pointed out you had omitted information, post below:
KLAMarine said:
The article goes on: "Garner's acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were contributing factors, the medical examiner determined." Let's not omit details. Currently, I am trying to get a copy of Eric Garner's autopsy which I assume has already been conducted. Not easy. |
You omitted details, I just felt the need to point that out. I want ALL of what the coroner had to say to be heard, not just a portion.
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| DrDoomz said: And yes, you WERE attempting to deflect blame from the cop to Garner's health. As this statement proves:
You were insinuating that garner was already suffering from the very condition that killed him and the choke hold only made it worse, like he was having a heart/asthma attack BEFORE they decided to choke him out then smother him. |
Reading comprehension: it's important. I was obviously not insinuating he was having a heart attack before the attack. Make note of what I said:
"The choke hold aggravated Garner's medical conditions (ailments unknown to police) which ultimately lead to a heart attack as he was transported to the hospital."
ultimately lead to - the statement prior preceded statement after: choke hold happened before the heart attack. Consequently heart attack happened after the choke hold.
as he was - this means heart attack occurred during transportation to the hospital, not before and I think you would agree the choke hold occurred BEFORE Garner was transported to the hospital.
As for the issue of Garner having asthma, one always has asthma as people with asthma will always say that 'they have asthma'. I believe the asthma attack occurred during the confrontation (as they at-times occur, during strenuous activity) as Garner was being wrestled and held down to the ground. I don't have proof of this however, not sure it can be forensically proven when exactly an asthma attack occurs.
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| DrDoomz said: 2. Because contributory =/= causal. You asked what was "more responsible" for his death aka. the primary cause, I emphasized the portion of the report where the medical examiner pointed it out. |
Funny you point out that contributory =/= causal more than once
| DrDoomz said: Contributory factors are NOT Causal factors |
yet you yourself have used a form of the very word you object to:
| DrDoomz said: It wasn't the pile up it was the banned choke hold that contributed to his death. Tho I'm pretty sure the (highly unnecessary) pile up had a little to do with it as well... |
Here you said the choke hold contributed to Garner's death. In other posts, you claim the choke hold caused Garner's death.
| DrDoomz said: He was vulnerable to their particular assault (the chokehold) but the very reason the chokehold was banned by the NYPD is because it is KNOWN to cause death in people. He rolled the dice using a banned move known to cause death. And Garner paid the price with his life. |
Get your stories straight.
Perhaps contributory = causal or contributory ≈ causal? Hmm.
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| DrDoomz said: 3. Orrr you can say "X only made Y worse, but Y is what ultimately lead to Z". Which would make Y the culprit and X the unwitting accomplice don't you think? Sound familiar? Pantaleo cannot escape blame without transfering blame to Garner. It's not as if he accidentally choked him out, smothered him and left him to die. You either blame the cop's methods or the victim's actions/conditions. |
Let me declare it now, now that I have read up a bit more on what had happened and have seen a bit more of the captured footage: I ultimately place blame (***HERE IT IS!!! THIS IS ME PLACING BLAME!!! THIS IS NOT AN EXPLANATION!!!***) on the police for the apparent incompetence they displayed after Garner had lost consciousness. They should have gotten Garner medical attention as soon as they realized his calls that he could not breathe were more serious than previously thought.
Keep in mind I don't know what sort of law could be used to charge the police at the scene, I don't know what protocol the NYPD is supposed to follow when someone they've handcuffed loses consciousness in the manner Garner lost consciousness, or who was ultimately in charge among the officers there. I am not a law student.
