Will MGS4 live up to MGS2?

[Played_Out]

shio said:

Played_Out said:

@ shio
I'm afraid Deus Ex is a lot simpler than MGS2. It merely tackles the notion of free will in relation to digital consiousness a la Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell...

The Witcher was a great game, and it certainly trumped Oblivion in some areas, but it was definitely not a better game overall. And it seems like a strange title to mention when throwing around accusations of being an RPG n00b (hit me where it hurts why dontcha?) as it's stats system, alchemy system, spell system and levelling system were all considerably more primitive than those found in Oblivion. It also lacked any kind of character customisation, which is a definite no-no for many RPG fans (myself included).

Oblivion may have had a weak story, some questionable design decisions and the controversial "levelled" monsters, but the amount of depth in other areas more than made up for those flaws.

Have you really played Deus Ex? Because the "notion of free will in relation to digital consiousness" is but a mere bit of Deus Ex. The game tackles political philosophies, greed and ambition of the god-like, world domination, freedom of speech; and to a smaller scale the loss of identity, cloning and religion.

The story was certainly not derivative, as there are not really many cyberpunk, conspiracy-centric stories and Deus Ex's was extremely well done and might I add, is the Blade Runner equivalent in videogaming.

 Funny thing you say Oblivion having depth, because apart from the world size and number of skills, Oblivion was very shallow. Oblivion's biggest flaw was not the leveling system, nor the weak story, nor the boring repetitive dungeons, nor the undistinguishable NPC's and Quests. Oh no, Oblivion's biggest flaw was the lack of the most important trait of RPGs.... the freedom of choice/consequence.

I agree with your comparison between Deus Ex and Blade Runner. I actually made that connection in my previous post. The difference is that I do not consider Blade Runner to be a work of profundity. They both do what they do exceptionally well, but neither work requires much interpretation.

"The game tackles political philosophies, greed and ambition of the god-like, world domination, freedom of speech; and to a smaller scale the loss of identity, cloning and religion."

All of which are fine subjects for philosophical enquiry, but none of which necessarily relate to an understanding of broader philosophical concepts. Let me clarify again that I am a fan of Deus Ex, but to suggest that it's conspiracy plot is not utterly typical of contemporary sci-fi is patently absurd (see the Illuminatus! Trilogy as a starting reference point).

I strongly suggest you go and read the work of prominent postmodernists such as Baudrillard or McLuhan, and if you think you have a firm grasp on their ideas, come back and discuss them in relation to MGS2, Deus Ex, or any other game to which you think such theories may apply. If not, just stick to William Gibson and Philip K. Dick (not that there would be anything wrong with that).

I agree about the lack of consequence to your actions in Oblivion, and I could name a hundred other shortcomings too. The depth I referred to was in the gameplay mechanics. The stats system was thorough and I have never played a game with a deeper alchemy (or equivalent) system. But this isn't a thread to discuss the ins and outs of good RPG design, so I will put the kibosh on that particular line of argument right now.

@ billy07
"If you told your philosophy professor at college you want to learn all the basics in the shortest amount possible from the thinnest book he'd laugh at you. Most philosophy books are 500 pages or more."

Nietszche said: "It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what other men say in whole books — what other men do not say in whole books."

@ Profcrab
To be fair, the ideas touched upon in MGS2 are more complex and intellectually demanding than anything found in The Republic. That's the advantage of an extra 2400 years of civilisation!