What do you think you have to do to get to Heaven?

[Profcrab]

Daddo Splat said:

Profcrab said:
So, what makes Intelligent Design worthy of being taught in school? Because some people believe it even though there is no scientific evidence of it? You have also made a comment out of ignorance. It doesn't sound like you know much about evolution. Evolution has gone far beyond Charles Darwin. The studies of evolution go down to the cellular level. I won't profess more knowledge than I have studied myself (I study geology, not biology beyond what I had to), but you would be well served to talk to a molecular biologist. There are no inconsistancies, there are only gaps in what you can actually find in the fossil record. There is a problem with the fossil record, not all animals live in areas where they are likely to fossilize, and some do not have body structures that fossilize well.

Even though I can't go into detail about the the cellular variations, I can tell you about fossils. Sometimes, in geology we are very lucky and we find certain rocks that do have a specific chemical makeup that allows them to preserve micro-organisms and larger organisms with soft-bodies, like early arthropods and softer planktonic organisms. Are record of marine organisms is much more complete because they live where they are likely to fossilize. Land animals that don't live near water they can be buried in often only fossilize because they were caught in a landslide or some other natural disaster. So, you get a very good record of evolution in the ocean. Fossils are useful to us because we can use them to date rock layers quickly and correlate them with other rock layers around the world. We can see how animals changed in response to their environment and in response to each other.

If you are going to start teaching some people's religious beliefs in school then which one are you going to chose? There are people in New Guinea that believe, or believed, that the world was created by a great mother who gave birth to her son and left him to grow up on the island on his own. When he turned 15 he missed his mother so much that he cried until he filled the oceans, which is why the oceans are so salty, and his mother returned. When she returned they had children and gave birth to all the people of the world. So, there is about as much proof of Intelligent Design as there is of a goddess that had sex with her 15 year old son to beget the world. Which, by the way, had to happen in the biblical explanation since if there are only Adam & Eve, someone had to "know" their brother, sister, mother or father.

Also, stop associating theory with a guess. Theory in science is an explanation for natural phenomena backed up by reliable evidence. Evolution will never be a law of science because laws are natural mechanics, not explanations. For instance, we have laws of gravity which describe gravity's behavior, but how gravity works is a theory.

 

 I know its not popular oppinion but Jesus is the way the truth and the life! 2nd evolution fought its way into the classroom with the same opposition Creationism is getting now! How the tables have turned!

the real issue is what faith based religion are you going to follow best guess hypothisis! were one single cell bacteria appeared by random chance or a meteor from outer space which could be plausible it happened on another planet then the bacteria hit the earth before oxone or oxygen so it could possibly have survived its way here through space and form these small living cells all thing evolved! Or that a creator God Spoke the World into existence for his good pleasure! were the bible makes claims about floods and other things!

Creationism talks about the fossil record and its complaint to evolution is where are the transitionary forms how did the one first living organism come into existence??? A. E. Wilder Smith a Micro biologist talks about the complexity of just one single cell organism! the fact that its just appears is the greatest miracle of all!

I personally believe let the people have the public schools so the social left can train thier recruits about evolution and 10% of all people are gay! and sin doesnt exist its just good or bad behavior!

 Why do you think the Homeschool movement has grown so large! Because parents dont need the Goverment and the social left telling them how to raise thier kids!

So just like it makes you mad that people want to get thier view expressed! and be taught on a level playing field it also piss me off all the other garbage that gets pushed out in public schools!

PS a creation view in the bible would'nt offend any Christian group Catholic Protestant ! also Jews Muslims all hold to a Genesis type creation! I could see hindus and budhist having a problem with it but they might have a problem with evolution to!

Just explain how the 1 st living organism came into existance ??

You recreate it in a lab and show us scientifically how it worked! Iam all ears! or would there be conclusive evidence of this or just speculation and best guess???

 

First of all, as to how life formed, we do have clues and can recreate some of that possible process.  One thing is that some simple organic compounds can be produced abiotic, without life creating them.  Some of these also form more complex compounds without life to form them.  RNA, most likely the first genetic code used can reproduce without the aid of life.  One of the problems with demanding that scientists create it in a lab is that we will never have what the earth had to create life, geologic time.  Millions of years during that time.  The conditions would have to be just right for the self-replicating molecules to be encased in a of lipid bilayer protective case (which can also form without needing life to create it).  All life on earth depends on the lipid bilayers to protect the inner workings of their cells.  You have everything you need in these early earth environments for life to exist, give it enough time and the chances that these chemicals are going to come together in just the right way grows.

Also, as I stated, there are always going to be gaps in the fossil record.  If you were a land animal that lived 50 million years ago no where near a large body of water, the chances of you fossilizing are very low.  Animal carcases that are left out in the open do not fossilize.  They are eaten by animals from carnivores to scavengers and their bones do not stand up to weathering.  You also need something to bury them.  This is also why early humans did not fossilize well.  Early humans and their genetic cousins, were land animals who did not live where they would fossilize well.  So, you will find that the fossil record is incredibly biased towards marine life because they do live where they would be preserved.  Also, keep in mind that we are also limited by what we can access.

Even in geology it sometimes becomes a pitfall to throw around times like millions of years like we were talking about seasons.  What still must be understood is that these are immense spans of geologic time.  Single celled organisms dominated the earth for almost 2 billion years.  Once the oxygen level reached a level where complex multicellular heterotrophs (things that don't produce their own food) could grow larger, you had the Cambrian Explosion (about 550 million years ago) where you see lots of complex multicellular creatures pop up in the fossil record.  The features of these animals grew out of the natural process of escalation where animals drive the evolution of each other.  This happens with predators and prey where prey with features that make it possible for them to survive long enough to reproduce live and predators that are better able to overcome these features live to do the same.  This process continues and animals develop more and more features to gain that advantage.  Without considering the time that these processes are working with, they seem unnatural.  You have to consider that these spans of geologic time are each several million years.  These animals existed for sometimes tens of millions of years.

The Earth is a complex machine not a museum curator.  This is why you will never get 100% of the proof you are looking for because the earth isn't trying to preserve everything for us.  Some things preserve, some don't.  Some things even do preserve but then get put under so much heat and pressure that all the fossil evidence in the rock is lost (fossils are the first thing to go).  This happens in metamorphic rock.  The older a rock is and if it is at the right edge of the continent it has a decent chance of being metamorphosed during a continent collision.  Paleontologists are not big fans of metamorphic rock because it destroys what they are looking for.

We have strong evidence for all of this, we have evidence of these early single-celled organisms.  We have evidence that the Earth is that old.  We know the environments that many of these plants and animals lived in.

Let me bring this back to your comment.  If you want to believe that God designed all this and whatnot, that's fine.  I, by the way, never said I didn't believe in God.  Science exists to find explanations for natural phenomena.  All these things tie into each other, Chemistry, Biology, Geology, Physics.  You can't split them away from each other because they interlock.  You can't say that one is the realm of God and can't be touched.  All biology is chemistry, all chemistry depends on physics, all geology depends on biology, chemistry, and physics.  When talking about mutations, biologists have even been able to come up with a clock by which they can chart the rate of inclusions of mutations through time.  It can only give a general age range and is different for vertebrates and invertebrates but has been used to come up with an estimate of an organisms age which geologists later were able to place that organism in that time frame when they discovered a fossil of it (I just read a paper about where they found the earliest organisms ever discovered with bilateral symmetry and what the early estimates were).  I'm sorry but the evidence that evolution occurs and what causes it is there in the rocks.  Biologists will also tell you that the evidence can also be found in our own cells.  If you want to believe that it's that way because God designed in that way then that is certainly OK, but you can't teach that in school because it's only a belief.  Science is not a religion.  Science is not trying to tell you that there is no god either.  Scientists use evidence they have to explain these natural occurances.  If you want to speculate a to the origin of everything, go right ahead, but to deny that these processes exist and to say that we are separate from them is just willful ignorance at this point.