Next-gen AI and Next-gen BS

[Hynad]

Norris2k said:

Hynad said:

Norris2k said:
Yeah, clearly that's BS, the guy doesn't even know what he's talking about.

I will make a digression on strategic IA (not theft one), I'm not even sure it's possible to have a good (strategic) AI.

The reason the cpu cost is low is that it's not even an AI, it's just a (hard to code and hard coded) collection of a few tricks and scripts relying a lot on cheats. You script a build order that will execute perfectly, add some build order rules (don't build to extend max cap if you are far from it), use cheats (know where the player is, cheat on costs, know player units), and set a few attack rules (for example send units when you have 10 units if player has less than 7). You will make it more complex, with added rules and build order, but it will never be enough to give focus, game and map understanding, long term strategy.

For example in Starcraft the AI will follow a predefined and optimal build order, and send units to you, directly to your base (no fog of war). The idea is to put you at a disadvantage that will make the battle harder (or even beat you), and the AI seems better. At some point, as the AI has no focus, no strategy, no understanding of what battle it can win or lose, and does not even have micro management. It just follow unrelated and suicidal directives, so you will overcome and prevail. With some experience, you will be able to manage it to the point you can handle 4 to 7 AI. 1 versus 4 is a lot more than 4 times more powerfull, it's something you can't achieve with players that have more than 10 hours of training.

Go beyond that seems extremely difficult. For example, the go game is very simple compared to a computer game. Only 1 unit, very simple rules easy to code, and a very limited and regular board : 19x19. Lots of people are trying to make an AI, and so far the results are not really impressive. It's not even real time.

Chess was solved by brute force, a solution based on search tree because the number of possibility (what you can do in one turn) is limited enough in term of possible moves at every step... to have a super computer from top 500... search for the next move for one unit... in 5 minutes !

You, sir, win just because you mentioned my favourite board game of all: Go.

But I don't understand what you mean when you say the AI developed for this game aren't real time. I play on CGoban, on KGS Go server, against what we call bots (like GNUGo) and it's all real time. Sure, they're no very strong. The strongest I've heard of is around 2-3 Kyu level. They understand life and death pretty well. But they get overwhelmed quite easily if you use an ounce of strategy.

My explanation was not very clear, I meant that the game is not realtime. It's turn based, like civilization or chess.

One player plays, then it switch to the other player turn that sees what changes happen, and the game evolve step by step incrementally. What is great with Go is that you do feel territory interaction, simultaneous war on different front than can, possibly, connect, extend. You can have slow pace positionning or very quick attack.  But technically speaking the game is turn based. I miss the game, I didn't play for years. I feel ashamed I stopped playing, but at some point I just thought "I will never be good" lol CGoban is really impressive in fact, in any way I want to diminish its quality. And sure, it's really a splendid board game.

But anyway, what is different in a realtime game like Starcraft is that the game flows continuously with real simultaneous action, the timing and instant thinking is required, and that makes it really hard.

I understand clearly now. I'm tired. It's really late here right now. I should have understood what you meant right away. Dx

In any case, it's never too late to go back to the game. ^_-
You'll be rusty at first, but just like any sort of reading, what you've learned, you've learned. It just takes a little getting used to at first, to dust out that part of your brain. But you'll get back to the level you were when you stopped quite quickly. But just like any other strategy game, you have to invest some time into it to get better. Doing some tsumego helps quite a lot. And you don,t have to do more than like a few minutes per day. 

What I love about this game is that not 2 games are alike. The rules are very simple (it's one of the oldest game, if not the oldest game, still being played with its original set of rules!), but it's the situations that arise throughout the game that make it so complex and limitless. It's such a pure game. I stopped playing chess once I learned about this game. And never looked back. Sadly though, there's not a lot of people around here who play. So my board and stones gather dust.

And I don't meet a lot of people who are willing to learn how to play. I wish I had someone to play for real (not just online)... Maybe one day. xD