By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close
ultima on 06 March 2014
Edit Thread
Kasz216 said:
ultima said:

Yeah, because it's really hard to google things, right? Also, government officials may never have other email addresses, right? Especially a country like Lithuania, with a lot of enemies wanting to get their greedy claws on their secrets. Hey, I'm not conclusively stating that the leaks were legit; however, the reason you give to refute them is horrible.

About Orange Revolution: the point is not that it may have been warranted (in addition, it being warranted is debatable). The point is that US was involved in the domestic issues of Ukraine. So claims of current involvement are not as outrageous as you try to make them out to be.

Why is the Black Sea Fleet stationed in Chrimea? Because that's where it's been historically, since 18th or 19th centry. They had the infrastructure there, and Russia did not have the funds to relocate after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. A naval base is not something you can load on a truck and move to a different location. Is that not obvious?

And Russia has been terrible to Ukraine? Really?

And check that out: EU approved a $15B loan to Ukraine now. There goes your justification of previous EU offers. This says two things: EU had the money to cough up and that EU is more willing to help out the current renegade government, that was able to come to power thanks to street thugs who hired snipers and blamed the murders on the democratically elected officials.

1) You've given no reasons why the emails aren't legit, just why the people who made them made really stupid mistakes in faking them.

2)  Except during the Orange Revolution, the US and EU were upfront about it through people who trained non-violent protestors.   That's a whole lot different then what's going on here.

3) So you more or less made my point for me on the need for Sevestapool.  You say they can move the base, but that they couldn't move the base now, because it takes time and money.   So if the Kiev government decides to invaldiate the Russians and kick out the Black Fleet... then what?

 

4)  Yes.  Russia has been terrible to the Ukraine.   That should be a fairly undeniable statement.  Outside which, did you look at the EU offer?  It's the same as the Greece offer... and the previous offer basically.

Some money upfront with further conditions.

So, it doesn't change anything, accept putting out a big number that better explains that money will be there if the Ukrainian government actually reforms it's economy.

 

1 - I admitted that they may not be legit. I just wanted to get your comment on them. And your comments were that it's a fake because one of the addresses is perhaps not plausible.

2 - Except during the Orange Revolution, protests didn't turn violent and crazy. And the circumstances were much different. The purpose of the Orange Revolution was not to oust a democratically elected government out of the office.

3 - No, you have no point. And do not distort my words. The understanding was that the base would be available until 2042 for sure, and probably until 2047 at least. That gives Russia plenty of time to assess what actions are to be taken. Moreover, the new government never said they would boot the fleet.

4 - No. Perhaps Call of Duty isn't the best source of current or past events? And exactly, the same loan, more money. Doesn't that strike you as odd? And don't make it sound like you had this expectation or understanding from the beginning. Your earlier words clearly show that the original tiny loan offer is how you think the EU rolls.