UNITY - Nintendo & Wii U Finish The REVOLUTION

[johnlucas]

Gamerace said:

Thanks for the detailed replied.  It's good to have these deep conversations on VGChartz again.

While I agree with much of what you're saying, you still seem to be making some massive leaps in logic without basis.

Yes - It's true PS4/XB1 really offer almost nothing that PS3/360 doesn't already and I expect them to have a harder time moving people to the new system than from PS2/Xb to PS3/360 - but that also happened over a process of years.   

Yes - the AAA game mentality will be challenging for the industry to maintain.  Yes Call of Duty will get old and decline.  But give these guys (3rd parties) some credit.  They know how to make appealing games.  Look at Last of Us.  Coming out in the seventh year of this gen, and this game is guaranteed to have sequels.  So it's not all doom and gloom.   3rd parties continue to offer new experiences, and many would argue, Nintendo does not.  IS NSMBU really any different than NSMBWii?  

Thanks for the props, Gamerace. I miss talking it up in these forums too.
Let me address your arguments piece by piece...and hopefully as brief as I can (is that possible?).

I am VERY convinced that the PS4 & XOne are gonna hit the wall HARD in the near future.
I'm trying to look for graphical comparison shots of late edition PS3/360 games to compare to similar counterparts on PS4/XOne games.
Like say PS3's Killzone 3 vs. PS4's Killzone: Shadow Fall & 360's Forza Motorpsort 4 vs. One's Forza Motorsport 5.
Or even better Battlefield 4 on PS3/360 vs. Battlefield 4 on PS4/One.
It's hard to find enough player commentary on this subject but from what I read there's a growing sentiment that there's not much difference between the graphics.
I think if that sentiment is strong enough among players that it will be FATAL to the futures of those platforms.
Especially compounded with the fact that neither console hosts backwards compatibility with their disc libraries & the price is restrictive on both.

Should that happen daggone RIGHT the AAA game mentality will be hard to maintain. They spend even MORE trying to get out a picture display that really isn't very much over what was done on the last consoles.
I see players sticking longer with their 360s & PS3s which they have invested so much of themselves into & have become cheaper over time.
Being in the shadows of THESE old consoles when you're supposed to be the next big thing??

Now of course there are still good 3rd party titles out there. I'm not saying they don't have output. The problem is why won't they share?
The problem is why do they deny Nintendo these choice titles time & time again? For no good reason?
Everytime they deny Nintendo it forces Nintendo to draw from their internal well & push their 1st party even stronger resulting in games like New Super Mario Bros. U.
It's pretty similar to New Super Mario Bros. Wii EXCEPT for the addition of the 5th player who can participate in the game indirectly.
And don't forget baby balloon Yoshis!
However, as for new experiences did Nintendoland have NO effect on you at ALL?? I saw so many gameplay possibilities out of that game!
And Game & Wario. The camera game within it could start up a whole new detective genre on the system. Maybe a game where you play a paparazzi.
Hell, that game with 9-Volt where you have to play a WarioWare style game on the Gamepad while watching the TV screen to hide his gameplay from his mother.
THAT WAS BRILLIANT!!
You may be just a little hasty with that statement in my opinion.

In fact this is one of my major grievences with WiiU - that pretty much all the games could have been on Wii.  So them asking me for $300 to play the same games now in HD is unappealing.  I would have bought some of their upcoming games if they were on Wii, but I'm not sold on buying a WiiU.  They just don't look different enough from what I have now (Mario Kart Wii, SSBB, NSMBWii, Wii Party, Wii Fit) to justify a new system purchase (or the games are too similar to what I could have on 3DS which is a cheaper system and at least is something different than my Wii (portable)).   And I am as big a Wii fan as you will ever find. I should be the easy money they make.  I can't count how many hundreds I spent on Wii systems/games/accessories but WiiU?  Not interested.   That is a huge problem.

Yes, there are gamers will be spend whatever to play the lastest in the series - these folks, by and large, are on PS360 and many will get PS4/XBOne to continue to play the latest version of the same game now in 4000k.  And 3rd parties are going to continue to cater to this market.  

What market will they appeal to on WiiU?  Nintendo fans? They don't buy 3rd party stuff, no matter how good it is.  Their was some great stuff on previous gens than Nintendo fans ignored.  Zack & WIki, Okami, Beyond Good and Evil, etc. Even when 3rd parties make games comparible to Nintendos, they can't possibly realize Nintendo like sales on a Nintendo console.  People, now more than ever, only buy a Nintendo console for Nintendo games.  

Nintendoland nor Game & Wario could exactly have been done on the Wii. I totally disagree with that.
Listen I was once just like you. I was disgusted at Nintendo when I thought they had abandoned The Revolution before it was finished.
I thought they should have pushed harder with Wii in 2011 & was knocked off my blocks when they cut out to make the Wii U.
But I had that epiphany, that revelation that let me know Nintendo is still fighting The Revolution just with a different vehicle.
They could been like a stubborn Taurus & kept driving the Wii over the 360 & PS3. Probably coulda kept racking up expectation defying sales over them in the process. Easy money.
But they HATED that Wii got pigeonholed as the "Casual Console". That was not their intention for Wii.
EVERYBODY'S Console was the goal. Look at those initial Wii promos & commercials from 7 & 8 years ago.
They didn't want easy sales victories over the PS3 & 360 anymore. They had already conquered those systems. It was time to look to the future.
They had a new plan to correct what went wrong with the perception of the Wii while retaining what they gained from Wii.

THAT'S why they have unprecedented backwards compatibility with this system. Controllers, accessories & all.
The Mii Parade from the Mii Channel has evolved into Warawara Plaza & Miiverse.
Wii U is more of a socially-connected console than Wii was. It's viral & is built to maximize the power of word-of-mouth.
That will help game sales for all kinds of titles, that will create a large stronger Nintendo base to draw from, that will protect against the negative propaganda heard from in the gaming & mainstream press.

It's harder to see from the outside in than Wii was. Wii's swinging Wiimotes showed you from afar what the system could be about.
Wii U on the other hand has to be touched & experienced directly to understand.
Even with my epiphany I didn't fully grasp the power until I actually played the system.
Reggie Fils-Aime already told you at E3 2006, "...is no longer just about looks, it's about the feel."
The graphics aren't gonna improve much more over 7th gen, the point I made about PS4 & XOne's coming wall.
You WON'T understand just from looking on the outside & that is Wii U's hurdle.
Not an insurmountable one though & as soon as word-of-mouth catches on with this system it will be a runaway train.
Slow acceleration, high top speed.

As for Nintendo fans buying only Nintendo games...
Tell me, would you call me your typical hardcore Nintendo fan? Yes, right?
Well, I bought PLENTY of 3rd party games on Wii last generation including Zack & Wiki, Okami, Elebits, Dewy's Adventure, the Trauma Center series, DragonBall Z Budokai Tenkaichi 2 & 3, Boom Blox & Boom Blox: Bash Party, ALL of those LEGO-brand movie franchise games, Blast Works, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, No More Heroes & No More Heroes: Desperate Struggle, Red Steel 2, Madworld, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Bully: Scholarship Edition, Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection, Harvey Birdman: Attorney At Law, Cooking Mama: Cook Off & Cooking Mama: World Kitchen, Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquility among others.

People will buy it if it's prominent on shelves (blame retailers for a lot of this) & if the game appeals to enough people.
Carnival Games had appeal because who really had a game set in a carnival atmosphere on the market.
The Just Dance series appealed because it took all the stodginess & stuffiness away to make it a silly social dance-a-thon. Nobody was doing that before quite like that.
Suda51's titles are so out there to begin with his appeal is narrower (strong but narrow) but No More Heroes sold BEST on Wii.
In fact it's his best-selling game to date! He went gold with over 500,000 sold!
Maybe he should have brought Shadows of the Damned over to the Wii he might have gotten more sales.
Yes, I TOO am frustrated when a great game idea gets lost in the shuffle. THAT'S what Wii U's community centric design can alleviate.
Nintendo promotes from outside, the Miiverse promotes from inside. And less games will lost in the shuffle because of it.

The other market Wii had was the so-called casual gamer, people who will not buy each in a series of games continuously, but rather wants new experiences.  One version of Boom Blox was enough for them, and we saw that time and again on Wii with sequels selling far less then the original idea. Even in Nintendo games.   WiiU - again - is offering nothing 'new', another mario game, another DKC, another Wii Party, a third Wii Fit.  BORING!   And asking $300 to play the same games at $60 a pop?  Not happening.   Especially when this market is getting new game experiences constantly on mobile.

Kill that term please. There is no such thing as a "casual gamer" or a "hardcore gamer".
Everybody starts as a newbie, as a greenhorn. We didn't all have game history locked in our brains at first.
We didn't all buy games as part of a gamer's lifestyle at first. We all had to start somewhere.
NEVER say that the people who bought Wii would not buy a series continuously.
If the sequel added enough unique & different, they'll buy it. That's how Just Dance worked, remember?
Check the sales on Wii's Tiger Woods PGA Tour. The 2009 & 2010 versions outsold the 2008 version. Which all outsold the 2007 version.
In fact Wii's Tiger Woods of 2008-2010 were the 5th (2009), 6th (2010), 7th (2008) best-selling Tiger Woods games of all time.
These Wii versions sell a lot better than the current Tiger Woods on the 360 & PS3.
Seemed to be the so-called hardcore who didn't come with repeat business. They talk a big game but never follow through.

Don't be surprised at Nintendo bringing you their familiar franchises. They do it every generation & they're SUPPOSED to do it.
Generally they release one iteration of a franchise per generation, sometimes two. They space 'em out & you know that.
Mario has many sub-franchises so that's why you see him so much. Paper Mario, Mario Party, Mario Kart, 2D Mario, 3D Mario, & so on.
But while you gripe at that, don't forget about The Wonderful 101 which is totally brand new.
If good gaming's on mobile, that's excellent. But that doesn't mean the consoles don't provide fresh experiences.
And you know Nintendo usually ALWAYS does something unique to their franchises every iteration.
For instance, Super Mario 3D World is the first time we ever had multiplayer in a 3D Mario game, SIMULTANEOUS multiplayer at that.
That's new. Everything they accomplished on Super Mario 3D Land with making 3D Mario as accessible as 2D Mario...
...THEN adding simultaneous multiplayer to the mix!! Come on now! Can't tell me you're not excited about that.

RE: Mobile - I concur that the current market on mobile will crash as it's unsustainable I feel.  But that's not to say games won't continue to be sold on mobile, it'll just shrink, less garbage for free, more gems for real money.   This is a natural part of the evolution and we saw this in the early console market too with a glut of systems and copycat games only to crash and be reborn as something better.   But no way is that something better going to be WiiU (or 3DS). People won't go from free to $60/game (or $40).   They'll go to 5-15 games, and maybe in time that'll creep up and up as games offered get bigger, better, more console like.

I will give you one point that Nintendo's game pricing is steep. I'm not too much in favor of the rise either & I think it's an unnecessary weak point.
For the sake of retail I don't think Nintendo should start going $10 & under for their games but some compromise has to be reached.
I could deal with $30 to $35 for home console games maybe $40 & $15 to $20 for handheld console games maybe $25.
But despite going up it's not seeming to stop Nintendo especially on the 3DS front. Just LOOK at Animal Crossing: New Leaf!!

No the mobile games market won't die entirely just like the old PC games market didn't die entirely.
But it won't be that oasis for revenue everybody's expecting it to be.
Here's the thing. By default EVERY developer is a 3rd party developer on the smartphones & tablets. They don't control the design or manufacturing of the devices so they'll always be trying to fit what the fragmented phone market wants.
It's the Wild Wild West just like it was on the old desktop PCs. Lots of freedom but little unifying structure.
Because they can't control the machines they make games on they're pretty much in the same boat as the 3rd parties on current Sony & Microsoft.
Little real innovation on the interface which demands a rigid adherence to a type of control input.
That's why the PlayStation controller has barely changed in the past 20 years & why the XBox One controller looks just like the XBox 360 controller.
Outside of your very talented developers, most of the bunch will make games that play too similar & this sameness will over time leave players disinterested.
The videogame business is one that depends on novelty & newness. Even the familiar must be readapted to keep fresh.
Similarities between Super Mario Bros. & Super Mario 64 but there's no way you could tell me those are the same thing over & over.

As far as controls, there's lots of options to use a gaming controller to play mobile games and not only do systems like Ouya allow off TV play but so does Galaxy 4 - with a controller no less.  It's also incorrect to say 3rd party console game makers are ignoring mobile.  They are all on mobile!!  In fact, for many of them mobile is a significant profit generator to they point that whole studios are being turned or created to be mobile studios only.  They are also looking to make mobile gaming a part and parcel of the console gaming experience.  Many upcoming games will have a mobile app that allows you to contine playing the game when away from home, in some regard.   As mobile devices continue to grow in power, the difference between console play and complimentary mobile play will shrink until it's basically the same.    Like every Blu-ray now comes with a digital download (and DVD - ha ha) so will consoles games come with a free app to allow continued play away from home.

Pretty cool about Ouya's off-TV play. Too bad the console can't get arrested in this town. I haven't seen the system anywhere in my area.
They got crowded out of E3. Very devious whoever did that to them. I hope they find a retail outlet & get some sales.
However, they pretty much have what Sony has. A small screen on a controller. Doesn't quite match up to the UPad.
Samsung Galaxy 4...screen not as big as the UPad. And no buttons on the actual Galaxy. Not quite the same.
Wii U's Gamepad buttons make it simultaneously a controller as WELL as a console. Precision touchscreen, gyroscopes & other motion control components, WITH buttons that give it more versatile control possibilities.
Plus the fundamental problem with using your phone as a primary playing device is that what happens when an important call comes in. Smartphone gaming can never really replace a dedicated gaming device because of that simple fact. Games will always have to be smaller in scope on those devices based on its nature.

As for the 3rd parties & the mobile market. There's a difference between dabbling in the market & diving in headfirst.
Why bother making mobile gaming a part of console gaming if mobile gaming is superior to console gaming? Look at all that Candy Crush feedback!
Why are they not abandoning the consoles altogether & eliminating the retail middleman to sell directly to the public?
When EA is willing to put Madden on iPad EXCLUSIVELY, then I'll know they're serious.
You know the reason. Mobile gaming is seen as supplementary but not the bread & butter like console gaming is.
The 3rd parties are not ready to sell AAA games at $1, $2, & $5 price points. It's that simple.
That's why I know the 3rd parties really have nowhere to go when Wii U wrecks the dreams of the PS4 & the One.
They'll wade around in the water in flotation devices but they won't jump straight off the diving board.
Consoles still matter & the new PC environment will end up just like the old PC environment.
Good for those who make games for a hobby, good for those who want to test an idea in the wide-open PC space, but bad for those who want to make serious money for their efforts.
Only a few of the old PC developers like Maxis & Blizzard can remain viable purely in the PC space.
Most of the old PC guys have already moved onto consoles for the majority of their business. They would go homeless if they tried to sell purely on PC.

Also re mobile:  You should get a smart phone, they do so much more than you are giving them credit for.  Apps are a wonderful game changer as it makes life so much simplier when you can instantly know when the next bus is coming, the weather, where the closest coffee shop is, GPS, all your social networking without having to go through a browers to the internet.   Just touch the app, boom, there's the info you need, instantly.  3DS is not comparible to that.  Sorry. Nintendo also does a s--t job of letting people know about all that functionality.   EVEN THEIR OWN USERS!  I can't tell you how many Wii owners I know who didn't know about VC/WW.  Completely oblivious.   But on their smartphone they know how to get apps.   Nintendo has improved on this with 3ds/WiiU I hope and trust but still, does anyone (aside from the avid users) know 3DS and WiiU are capable of such functionality?  People still think WiiU is a Wii with a gamepad.

DSi & 3DS have apps too. I mentioned a host of them in a reply to another poster on this thread.
But Nintendo is ALWAYS game-centered at the end of the day. They're here to sell games first & foremost. Not movies. Not random apps.
They'll use those things to entice players to use their system but it's not their focus.
That's why Wii didn't have DVD playback which it was actually capable of if modded.
Same with Wii U not using DVD playback. Nintendo gets no money selling somebody else's movies.
3DS can never compare to a smartphone as an app device. Not its intention.
But at the same time smartphones can never compare to the 3DS as a game device.

Those Wii owners who didn't know about Virtual Console & WiiWare must not be the curious type or they never connected the system to the internet (How do you miss the Wii Shop Channel really?).
Wii U fixes that potential oversight in the Warawara Plaza as console features are front & center in your face on the TV screen/Gamepad. All those Miis in your face grabbing your attention.
The eShop does a better job than the Wii Shop & DSi Shop in showcasing what's all available on the service.
Wii U IS a Wii with a Gamepad. That's EXACTLY what it is. It's Wii Part 2 like I said in the initial post of this thread.
It's doing everything Wii did but MORE to strike at all competition & unify the gaming audience under them.
They made a better Wii that won't get blocked by the 3rd party standoff, that won't be played by the tablet market.

Even on gamer forums I'm seeing people asking how to run a WiiU game on their Wii.  Nintendo is in trouble with this.  If you think Sony/MS has a problem moving people from 7th to 8th, then you have to acknowledge Nintendo has the same problem.  NSMBU looks exactly the same as NSMBWii except to the trained eye.   I've looked at comparison videos.  It's not an obvious difference.  So why is Nintendo any different?  Oh... gamecrafting.   Tell them to gamecraft something new instead of red ocean BS catering to their old, Nintendo faithful.    It seems Nintendo has totally given up on market they attracted with Wii/DS.  What are they doing to keep/lure them back?  I see nothing.  They sit in their little Nintendo IP corner, no longer innovating, trying to profit off their dwindling base and kids.   Wii Party U and Wii Fit U?  A waste!!  Wii Party only sales with a controller.   REALLY? Are they mad?  Who needs yet another Wiimote at this point?  And Wii Fit U?  Waaaaayyyy too late to the fitness/game party.  Wii Fit created the boom and Wii Fit Plus did some nasty profitteering off it (wasn't worth an additional purchase) and it's long over and done now.  And there's nothing new about Wii Fit U that will entice a revisit to it.   It should sell 3-5m, which is not bad, but won't be the system seller Wii Fit was. No chance.   Which leaves all of nothing for the Wii crowd.  Guess they'll be buying Angry Birds Star Wars and Disney Infinity this year on Wii cause there's still no reason to get a WiiU.

I have no problem with the name. I think it was the right choice to signal the continuation of The Revolution.
This happens every generation. Probably the same happened to the PS2 with people wanting to play those games on the PS1.
Tell them that the older system can't play the newer system's games but that the newer system CAN play the older system's games. Simple.
What I want Nintendo to do more of is emphasize how everything you bought for the Wii works on the Wii U. Controllers & all.
That's the oversight that can bring more players to Wii U. No need to go into heavy investment with a new pack of controllers & accessories.
It's FULLY backwards compatible in ways not ever seen before.

Like I told you earlier. Graphics don't go much further than this. You're not gonna SEE the difference. You have to FEEL the difference by playing the system.
They started this fitness party & they will be successful again now that they crossed the very overlooked Personal Trainer: Walking's pedometer with the Wii Fit Balance Board. I have been using Personal Trainer: Walking for 3 years now & this was an intelligent development of the pedometer.
They're gonna need new Wiimotes because of all the extra sales they are destined to have.
Wii Party U is only the second game in that series. It will sell big ESPECIALLY with what the Gamepad can add to the series. ESPECIALLY in Japan.
They're retaining the old audience while making sure the audience who refuses them will soon join the gathering.
You watch & see.

Which brings me to your leap in logic.  Why is anyone, consumer or 3rd party developer suddenly going to jump on WiiU?  You seem to have no basis for this conclusion.   Yes, the AAA game AND the mobile game scenes are all on unsteady ground, but no ground is being rocked harder and is more risky than Nintendo's.  WiiU is a big a risk as you can make as a developer.  It's got no userbase and the userbase it does have will probably never buy your game anyway.  With Wii, it was easy to sell games, the user base was huge, and still some struggled.  WiiU? How is that appealing to anyone?  We'd need to see a complete and utter collapse of Sony/MS AND mobile before WiiU becomes the go-to strategy.  So how exactly you leap to that logic is baffling.   

Nintendo needs to reconnect with non-Nintendo faithful. FAST!  And so far, I'm seeing nothing on WiiU that will accomplish that.  They need to get back on their BLue Ocean strategy and start making games that people (not Nintendo fanboys) want to play.  They need to become an enticing and PROFITABLE option to 3rd party and independant developers.  And they need to do it yesterday, because 2015 is too late to save WiiU.

Why will the customers suddenly jump to Wii U? Because word-of-mouth will reach a critical point & they'll be curious to see what the fuss is all about.
Each one that joins this Miiverse opens the door to many others who will join. Wii U starts slow but will run faster in the end than Wii did.
Why will the 3rd party developer suddenly jump to Wii U? Because when Microsoft & Sony hit that wall & prospects get slim, the 3rd party will need to stay alive.
They will be humbled into rejoining Nintendo this gen. They will not have the mobile market to escape to.
It will take time but it will happen this gen. Nintendo will break the standoff once & for all.
Complete & utter collapse. NOW you understand me! That's EXACTLY what's gonna happen.

And don't worry about 2015. They'll have that 60 million by that time.
John Lucas