Popular Conservative Austerity argument Debunked?

[Kasz216]

ShinmenTakezo said:

Kasz216 said:

ShinmenTakezo said:
I guess a lot of people don't remember FDR and how he got us out of the Great Depression. Well, just in case you didn't know FDR spent us out of the Great depression. He put americans to work fixing and improving america. We need to invest in our infrastructure badly because we are behind the modern world on that front. We need to stop demonizing teachers and pay them well so they have an incentive to teach our children. We are 25th in the world in education...... pathetic. We need to stop subsidizing these corporations. A lot of these corporations are on "welfare." Not only that, a lot of them pay little to nothing in taxes. We need to penalize these corporations for operating overseas for cheap labor. We need to raise minimum wage. We need to stop demonizing government programs in general. We need to get all of these clowns out of congress and put well educated, qualified people in their positions, like economists.

No he didn't.  Just about No Economist has believed that for 20+ Years.  Right or Left wing.

Even the most left wing economists think the New Deal was a HUGE failure because it wasn't big enough... and now suggest it was WW2's massive spending that got us out of WW2.  (Though... WW2 in a lot of ways was also a case of extreme austeirty.)

So yeah... put in economists in the polticians place and....

well.  They'll actually agree with your position less on that.

Are you an economist? Because I'm pretty sure you're not. I'm also pretty sure you don't talk to any economist at all. You just stated your oppinion, not fact. Show me some proof that no economist has believed that in 20 years. Good luck on that. You also proved my point, check the bolded. The new deal an WW2 were both factors in our recovery, and to deny that is not only extremely unfair, it's completely wrong. From my understanding economist believe both were a boon for our economy and got us out of a reccession. It was never considered a huge failure, except by you. You also failed to prove me wrong. All you succeeded at was confirming my argument that spending is what gets us out of reccessions. So let me try your method of arguing....... The proof is in history and every economist in the last 20 years agrees with my position, and if they were in congress they'd actually agree with your position less on that. Because you know, I talk to every economist on the planet, plus I'm psychic!

Also, you are sooooo wrong to say WW2 was a case of extreme austerity. What history books did you learn from? WW2 had nothing to do with austerity for the US. How can you practice austerity when the country is spending like crazy? The government legalized hemp to help the war effort so there were more jobs. Women were working in force. So where do you get austerity? Why did I never learn of this in school? Lets not rewrite history please.

A)   I don't know how you want me to prove that... I'd just suggest looking at an economics textbook.  Or really any one economist.  Even Paul Krugman agrees the New Deal didn't fix the great depression... and he threw away his economist credentials a good long time ago.

I mean... put it this way.  Ben Bernake is an economist right?   Leader of the Federal Reserve and all that... who does he think was right about the Great Depression?   Milton Freeman.

In general, after the GFC people were talking about if there would be  a resurgence to Keynsian economics... because Keynsian economics died in the era of Jimmy Carter.

B) That's what some left wing economists think.  That the New deal wasn't big enough... Monetarists though... who are the majority... not really.  It's why they have very specific stimulus plans now.  The old ones didn't work because simply priming the pump doesn't work.

 

C) What history books did I learn from?  The normal ones.   Also first hand accounts.

Here's a question for you.... what was World War 2 like for the average person.

Ever hear of a Ration Book?  WW2 was NOT a return to prosparity for people.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2095699

 

GDP rose during WW2... because government spending is part of GDP.  

If the treasury printed money equal to 3 times are GDP and congress passed a bill to pay it all to Jay Leno so he could burn it in a giant fire in Burbank, we'd raise our GDP by 300%!  Would you actually suggest the economy recovered?

 

The actual economy didn't actually get a lift until years after WW2.  If you look at Gross National Product.   That is GDP WITHOUT government spending.  You find that it shrunk during the war.

Why?  The people had forced austerity as all of our precious resources went towards tanks, bullets and war rations. 

The economy improved when the war ended.  Because the war ended.  Because those industries could return to making products worth.  Aggregate Demand caught up to Aggregate Supply, because people were forced to live austeire lifestyles and demand got pent up.  Once people didn't have to get gas stamps to stop hitler, buy all of their food out of preassigned cookbooks, consumption went up... I wonder why.  Because personal consumption was held back... not stimulated!

WW2 had the exact opposite intended effect as todays stimulus polices. (Both right and Left wing) which attempt to create personal consumption.

I mean... step back and ask yourself.  Do you think the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have helped the economy?  If the answer is no... (and i'd hope it was).  Why?  What made WW2 different from Afghanistan and Iraq?  Would our economy and living standards suddenly improve if we went to war against Iran?  Korea?  The Europeon Union?

D) It's also worth noting, that those same people who created the new deal thought the economy would collapse after WW2... when it did the opposite.