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richardhutnik on 26 April 2013
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thranx said:
richardhutnik said:

Jesus is supposed to be Lord, and this isn't "Oh golly gee, if you feel good about it, and it is right and you freely give, that is good".  It is supposed to be do it.  If you want to be hardcore on this point and go with what Jesus really said, he said, "That which you do to the least of these, you do to me", and then people in final judgement were judged by how they treated the disadvantaged.  It is a matter of doing it, period, not some sort of get joy for yourself, but do it.  It is a matter of producing real results.  What I get sadden by in these discussions is out will come this trope centered around the virtue of the people who give and who gives more than who actually helps.  

Jesus wants the poor taken care of, period.  And one can then go and say, "Taxes and welfare are EVIL because they are not VOLUNTARY", but then same individuals fail to show how those who have these services taken away won't suffer.  Yes there is "He who doesn't work doesn't eat" but there is also a TON more on making sure the poor are taken care of.

And the heart of this, if it really doesn't matter to you, you can make a ton of excuses on this matter, and end up rationalizing how those in need aren't help, and then just chalk it up to how things are.  


again please show me verses or evidence where jesus wanted to force people to do things. Its been a long time since i read the bible, but i do not recall a single moment where jesus forced others to do his biding. He worked off teaching others how to treat others. But not off of force. Had he wanted to force us to help others dont you think he would have intead of creating a religion of teaching, he would of raised an army and created a governemtnthat that would take care of every single person and all their needs. Seeing as that is not what he did, i think he wanted us to choose the right path. I am also open to evidence that Capitalism prevents people from obtaining food, shelter, or health. 

What lays at the heart of your argument about "Jesus didn't force people to do things", is an elevation of people's said "free will" above about everything else out there.  In that, NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE IS ONE SUPPOSED TO END UP MAKING PEOPLE DO ANYTHING.  This would end up going against the likes of parential compelling their kids to do things, and also repeatedly commands for people to submit to authorities.  You see in the New Testament textss where submission, and putting one's will aside because others who have authority over you, to do it.  It is NOT about this elevating non-compulsion above most other values, but people should bend their wills to be cheerful givers.  

This whole no compulsion goes out of the window when you see a verse like this:

Luke 14:23 - "And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled."

So, ultimately, one's will is supposed to bend to that of God, and be cheerful about it.  One is supposed to obey cheerfully the laws and compulsions set down.  Slaves are supposed to obey their masters and what not.  People are supposed to obey those in authority as if unto God.   Christianity is some sort of Libertarian utopia where everyone does things to their own devices, and people suffer consequences for their own choices.  Such a thing is not love at all.  And love is what Christianity is about.  Heck, you even see in Acts, where a couple that ended up not giving up all they had in a sale, and then saying they did, having God strike them dead: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananias_and_Sapphira

And you MUST go beyond just what Jesus said alone, and pull in other texts, preferably using the whole New Testament at least, because Jesus spoke to specific audiences, and in a pre-New Covanent time period that is after his death, burial and resurrection.  So you look to Acts and also Paul's writings to see things.

And on this, let's go even what Jesus is said here.  There are people who politically argue that individuals shouldn't pay taxes, because they are based on compulsion, and thus EVIL.  Well, Jesus says render to Caesar that which is Caesar.  Jesus doesn't say for people ot do tax revolts, and unless one wants to be anarchist and say Caesar has nothing (then why use the currency of the said entity you say has nothing?), then Caesar has something, and thus needs to be compensated.

Actually, if you want me to make a stronger case here, you have Romans 13 that says God is the one who put governments in place, and implies that disobedience to governing authorities is the same as rebelling against God:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-14&version=NIV

So, what if the government looks over and sees poverty and decides it needs to deal with this poverty issue by the means of taxes and welfare?  If you can clearly show that helping the poor is commanded by Jesus, and the government decides to do things to help the said poor with taxes, which is what Jesus has commanded, then how exactly does one then argue that the government doing what Jesus said, and seeing it is done, then how does one argue the government is not something one is to submit to, if you care about what Jesus cares about?

You can see a scriptural study in this here:

http://erlc.com/article/biblical-directives-for-combating-hunger-and-poverty/

 

Edit: And another article on this subject:

http://www.defshepherd.com/2011/08/jesus-anti-welfare-randian-capitalist.html