Kasz216 said:
seiya19 said:
Kasz216 said:
seiya19 said:
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Kasz216 said:
Why should people feel bad about what happened to other peoples races and sexes. It's called having empathy for people who aren't yourself.
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Well, I for one don't have empathy for races or genders, but for people. In fact, I specifically strive to judge people by who they are rather than by these labels, not only because of how meaningless they are for anything other than pointing some biological differences, but also because I know what happens when you give them too much importance. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about sexism, racism, religious discrimination or class warfare, or which group is favored over another... It's all the same. It's all about power, and using any excuse to get it. It's about discriminating people through these labels, generating resentment that wouldn't exist otherwise.
As long as people keep seeing things in terms of "teams" and keeping "score" of the offenses or gains, we'll never solve these issues. It's a never-ending, vicious circle. You can't solve discrimination with discrimination, just like you can't solve violence with violence. The only solution is to make these labels a non-issue. To not let them influence our judgement of these actions, as much as possible. And to let the past behind us by learning to not make the same mistakes, instead of making current generations carry the burden of those that came before them.
And I still don't know what makes the opinions of those women who aren't offended by this any less valid than those who do...
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That's kind of thinking has been tried before, and all it's led to is a rise in sexism, racism and antisemtism. "Colorblind" policies that happen in uneven societies do nothing but maitnain the status quo and further
That you actually think your above judging people by their race and gender is a completely asinine statement. Everyone is a product of their culture. Everyone is sexist and racist. Those who think they are above it are nothing more then people in denial of their own subconsious sexism and racism. I'd suggest trying to honestly take the above harvard test I liked.
If you do take it honestly. I imagine you'll be quite surprised.
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Has it ? I don't know about that... As far as I know, most Western countries tend to follow the "positive discrimination" mentality to deal with these issues, and I have yet to see any evidence of it working. In fact, my country (Uruguay) currently follows that line of thinking through a left-wing party (one that I voted for and support), and yet I've seen how not only is not working, but it's also provoking negative responses. And it seems logical to me, as when you apply "positive" discrimination to a group of people, you're giving a reason for others to respond in an equal, opposing manner.
In addition, forcing people to act against their alledged prejudices doesn't work, as you're not changing their actual views, just repressing them. On the other hand, attacking the root of the problem and accepting everyone as equally valuable regardless of our differences is a notion most people can agree with. This can actually have an impact on people's minds, long term.
And I never claimed to be inmune to these prejudices... I know I'm not. I said that I strive to be, and that we shouldn't let these labels influence our judgment as much as possible. Discriminating in the opposite direction as some sort of calculated move to offset your supposed bias seems to bring just as much issues to me. How do you know that you are being "fair" here when you're not even trying to be ?
As far as that test goes, I doubt its any useful in my case, given how I'm not from the US or any of the other optional countries. I took a quick look at it and it seems to be culturally charged, which would give it just as much bias as the one we all apparently have... So, how would it be evidence of anything here ? To be honest, I generally frown upon this kind of tests because of how easy they're to manipulate, similar to how polls in general can be...
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Except you know. You aren't.
Consious thought is no longer the cause of racism. Most people are subconsiously disposed to negativly assosiate things with black people and women.
Even the most liberal of people who consiously really want to not be sexist. Hence the point of the Harvard test I keep posting links to.
Pretending race and sex don't exist just means you tend to make a much of sexist and racist choices uncounsiously that you never challenge... because at best you think... "I'm not a racist!"
Hence the only way to stop Racism and Sexism is to pay a lot of attention to it and to know that subcounsiously you are going to be making some racist and sexist choices without even realizing it.
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I guess we have to agree to disagree then... I can't agree with that basis, and I'm not willing to dig through papers and papers of academic research to make some sense out of it, assuming I could, not to mention the fact that science is always a work in progress... And if that notion were true, it opens a rather ugly can of worms that might not even have a solution anyway... Assuming that you're going to be racist/sexist without any evidence of it and trying to blindly compensate for this is not a solution to me. If you can't consciously recognize your bias at hand, how can you properly correct it ? How do you know that you're not overcompensating it ?
And I have to disagree with your claim about conscious thought and racism as well... Can't say I have any evidence to back this up as I haven't looked for it, but I still see plenty of anecdotal evidence regarding the reasons why people discriminate others, with old negative stereotypes, misplaced blame and hate for unrelated issues and some remnants of discriminatory ideologies being still significant today. And then there's those who just discriminate as a way to keep power or control over something... Like "hardcore gamers" do with "casual" games/gamers ! (half-joke, half-serious here...)
Oh, and I do constantly challenge any bias I might have... I don't pretend that race and sex don't exist, I just take them into account only when they're relevant to the situation as any other element, as opposed to make them decisive regardless of it. And I believe avoiding double-standards is key to all this.
By the way, I still believe that all this has more to do with the big elefant in the room, the different and conflicting views that society has about sex, rather than an alleged discriminatory act. The issue starts when people see other members of their own genre engaging on certain activities that they consider negative and interpret that as a negative statement against the whole genre, jumping to conclusions. And in this case, the activity in question is being linked to sex appeal as the main intent (already questionable), which in turn is linked to female discrimination (an even bigger assumption with no basis to me). If people were more open to sexuality in general instead of regularly giving it negative connotations, this issue would not exist.
PS: My last post on the subject here. I'll read whatever others want to add, but this is it from me. I think I've wrote enough...
