By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close
timmah said:
fordy said:
timmah said:

I believe in teaching my kids to live a life that would reflect that of Jesus. The most important of those is the way they would treat others, regardless of any other factors. Every parent attempts to teach their child some sort of right and wrong, or morals. I don't believe the 'morals' are the be all and end all, as many things are open to discussion and interpretation... the core message is loving others and treating others as you would like to be treated.

Of course youth suicide is a huge thing, and suicides in the gay community are an especially horrible tragedy. I agree 100% with you there, but the 'murder' comparison was a stretch because I wouldn't in any way advocate anything that would provoke people towards suicide.

I understand that, which is why I told you my definition of 'reaching out'. It has to be without agenda and only for the good of the other person.

I agree with you. I also have massive issues with people who preach that homosexuality is evil, hate gays, or any of the other things you reference. There is a group of so-called christians near where I live that at times stand out with horrible, offensive signs about gays, this makes me more angry than anything I've ever seen. This is vastly different than what I'm talking about, it's on a personal level and would never seek to call out somebody else or be used in a judgemental way. I honestly think that some view homosexuality as somhow worse than anything they've done simply because they don't understand it (or because they themselves are gay in some cases).


If everyone truly lived that way, then there would be no bigotry at all, and we wouldn't be having this argument. However, I think you're underestimating the effects that such morals can have on young minds. Some question them; some accept them, and some let it well up inside them until later when it comes out in one expression or another (sometimes suicide). The latter are the ones that I worry about the most. I place it in the same category as bullying. Sure, you can ignore the things that others say, but it CAN get to some people, and unfortunately a lot of teen suicides are also attributed to bullying.

I'm not implying that you would personally advocate something towards provokation to suicide, but please understand that there are many out there whose teachings of such morals can be a direct provocation towards such measures. 

I agree with the definition of 'reaching out'. Unfortunately for my friend, this whole traumatic incident has closed him off moreso than anything. It's more of a knee-jerk response to an action, creating a kind of partisan rift. Before this incident, he was open to everyone.

If you do what you say you do, then you're one of the good ones. However, I don't agree with your stance on the morals thing, because some morals taught to impressionable youth can be damaging in more ways than originally intended.

I agree with you on that, teaching morals as the way to be 'good' and 'acceptable' to a higher power is foolish because nobody can live up to that standard (perfection). Morals are not the main focus of my faith, not even close. It really also depends on the reaction the parents have to their kids' shortcomings (every human being has faults, that's a given). As an example, my 4 year old hit her sister in the face yesterday (obviously not a good thing for her to do). As a consequece we put her in a time out for a few minutes. After this, I went over and gave her the same talk I always do, told her "you know when you hit your sister it made her sad. I'm not mad at you, and I always love you no matter what you do, but you need to say you're sorry and not do that again because it hurt her". That's a simplistic approach because she's 4, but the message is always the same, I love her no matter what she does, and there's nothing she could ever do to change that. I hammer on this far more than I do on her behavior. A lot will change when she's older and able to make her own decisions, and obviously I won't always be able to 'tell' her what to do forever (when they're 4 it's a little different), but the love and acceptance always has to be there no matter what.

Yes there are, and that is not acceptable.

I've seen this method of reaching out, and it's more for selfish purposes of the person doing the so-called reaching out in that case.

I can certainly understand your point on that, and I agree with you up to a point. Teaching morals alone is a surefire way to set your kids up for failure and rejection. That being said, I can say from my own personal experience that there is another side to this that is actually incredibly freeing. This hits close to home for me - I had suicidal thoughts as a teen because I was in a family that, at the time, was somewhat like what you describe and I could never 'live up' to their expectations (my parents have turned the corner and 'grown up' in a lot of ways, so my youngest brother had it much better than me). If I see 'sin' as some 'bad' thing that makes me unacceptable, it's terrible and like prison, however, if I see it as something everybody struggles with, as well as believe there is grace and forgiveness for my faults, that is an incredibly freeing thing. It takes away the natural shame I would feel - without any outside influence - for my own shortcomings (such as the fact that I can be a terrible Jerk if I don't watch myself as one of many things I struggle with). This is a two sided coin, the forgiveness/grace/acceptance aspect of the message too often gets left out even though it's the most important part. That oversight is what leads to judgementalism and bigotry not only against others, but against oneself, sometimes leading to suicide as you said. I can look at my own faults and forgive myself for them, they're just not a big deal, so neither are anybody else's faults. I also understand that I'm not on my own, and that every single person has faults, so the faults are really not a big deal.

Not trying to turn you into a Christian here, just trying to explain to you a little of what drives me and many people like me. I'm just as flawed as anybody else, and I certainly make mistakes and fall short of these standards pretty much every day.


I am sorry to hear about your past, but at least you have emerged from it a stronger person. Unfortunately, that cannot be said about others. Some find power to be able to restrain their mind from running too far, while for others it consumes them, and death feels like the only way out. It's always difficult to tell how another can react to such things, because of how different we as individuals can think. This is why it really annoys me to hear such hateful words sometimes, because I've worked with suicidal gay teens before, the results of such wishes and actions displayed by some in here. It is a cry for help that sometimes comes way too late. Nobody should feel alone.