If you are against gay marriage, explain why without mentioning religion

[timmah]

fordy said:

timmah said:

No it doesn't, not even in the least. By your obsurd, incredibly broad application of the word, I could not teach my children ANYTHING at ALL without you calling me a bigot without any basis or proof. Are you simply are choosing to not even take into account the entirity of what I'm saying? You ignore 90% of what I say and hone in on one thing, then broaden my statements and put words in my mouth to match your argument. There's no other option here as I've clearly proven that I'm not talking about any type of intolerance at all, I TEACH MY KIDS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF INTOLERANCE & BIGOTRY, PERIOD. Everyone I know at my church does the same.

For the sake of argument, what if this specific guarantee was more in arrogance or naivete than bigotry? What if just thinks he's going to have easy to teach kids that will listen to him, or that his parenting and reasoning skills are so awesome that there's no way his children will disregard his advice? There are multiple possibilities, so while it is possible that there was bigotry, it is highly unlikely since he already said he doesn't look down on other groups or act intolerantly towards them, so I would assume that in reality, he would most likely continue that. I assume the best about people until I see differently in their actions towards others. It's not a complete certainty either way, which is why it is over the line to call somebody that name out of your assumption of their motives. The only way your accusation works is if you actually know his intentions and motivations, which you do not. Could you at least consider that maybe you don't know somebody else's inner motivations?

Where in the world did you get that I would teach my kids to single out a group or tell other people what to do? Where? I can't even begin to know where you got the idea I would teach my kids to tell another group what to do.(?) I'm completely aghast at the stuff you come up with, the thoughts and beliefs that you ascribe to me are completely foreign to me and seem to come from some straw man you want me and others to be. Where could you possibly get the idea that I think a group needs to be 'told' what they're doing is wrong? You're telling me I believe things that I do not and never have believed, you continually presume to know what is in my mind in spite of everything I tell you. You either didn't read what I said or chose to ignore it, that's the only way you could possibly think this. I'll say it again... I teach my kids what they should do in their own life, how THEY should live, while teaching them never to look down on others or other groups, ever. In addition, I will love and accept them no matter what. It's not our (my family's/Christians in general) job to tell other people or groups what to do , it is our job to live an exemplary life of kindness, period. If you follow the example of Jesus, he lived a perfect life, while making friends with, loving and reaching out to people who were considered 'sinners' and 'outcasts' by society and the religious folks of the time (who ended up killing him). He went against societal norms by not looking down on anybody, ever, and by treating everyone as equals. If I teach my children to follow His example to the best of their ability while looking to follow this example myself there's absolutely no way they or I can be bigots. This goes for all Christians who truly understand the example set by Jesus. I am sorry that vocal and judgmental individuals have destroyed your opinion of Christians as a whole, the fact is that most of us are not like that.

Also, calling someone a lemming is clearly an insult any way you slice it. Are you calling me intelligent for 'not having any thoughts or opinions of my own and blindly following somone else off a proverbial cliff', that's what the term means. You're calling me the exact opposite of intelligent, that looks like a pretty clear insult to me, not really sure how you could say otherwise.

And here we go again, not realising that teaching your kids to love everyone, yet homosexuality is a sin is blatant hypocrisy. It's the exact OPPOSITE of toleration, if you're teching your kids to be just as intolerant towards a group, and stop bringing up this "they wont use it for bad because I'll teach my kids the exact opposite" bullshit when you're still as comitted to teaching them that homosexuality is evil. When people are given the choice between loving someone and hating them by their authoritative figure, that just gives them excuses to hate on people and saying that they "do it because they love them", and that's exactly the same message that you're bringing to this argument at this very moment. Plans of acts of bigotry hidden under "I can teach my kids to hate anyone and disguise it as love".

What if it was arrogence or naietivity? What if people who planned murders never planned on executing them, but were arrested for planning to murder a civilian anyway? Either way, he said a stupid thing and has to deal with said consequences. If someone says, seriously, to you, that they were planning to murder somebody, would you treat it like they were planning to do it? And before you start the crap about saying that this has nothing on the degree of murder, then think about this. This can be considered manipulating a child's life, making them think that what they are is wrong, because of his beliefs. Ever wonder why LBGT people have a MUCH higher rate of suicide? Cmon, take a guess....

Are you or are you not going to teach your kids that being gay is a sin? If so, you're delusional if you don't think that they're going to look at the gay community and NOT think of them as a bunch of evil people doing sinful things. You can live in your la-la land where you think that anything you do has absolutely no effect on others. You're planting the seeds of prejudice into young kids' minds. I'm going to repeat this once again: if you think that kids brought up this way are NOT going to use this at any time as a means to prove that they're somehow more rightfully just than somebody else who happens to be homosexual REGARDLESS if you teach them that it's for them and not for others, then you're just outright delusional with your predictions. Not only that, but you'd be teaching a child that what they are is wrong (if they happen to be gay and you teach them that it's a sin). What's your plan there? Hope that they don't kill themselves before they become old enough to question it?

And how are you going to teach said kids to 'reach out' to gay people (said sinners)? They get the idea then that 'reaching out' means to start informing them that what they're doing is wrong, in an attempt to 'save them'. Your entire plan is riddled with things that haven't been taken into account, and hypocrisies EVERYWHERE.

Despite your assumptions, I'm not against Christians at all; I'm just against the ones who push hateful agendas onto others, or their kids. You might argue that it's not a hateful agenda to say that things a group of people are doing is wrong; and in that case, I urge you to keep reading the above few paragraphs until you FULLY understand it.

I'm not commited to teaching my kids that homosexuality is evil. I never said that and you continue to put words in my mouth since my words and actions don't fit your biased worldview. You also again jumped to hyperbole (using murder in an argument the same way you used Hitler and a racist who intended to commit murder).

The key concept you don't understand is that as a Christian, I fully realize that I am a sinner, I do things that are 'sinful' pretty much every day. I act like a jerk to my wife at times, get angry at other drivers on the road, fail to be patient with my kids, and slip up in many, many ways. Just because I know something is a 'sin' doesn't mean I look down on anybody for it, because I'm in the same boat as everybody else. How can I look down on somebody for being a 'sinner' when I myself am also a 'sinner'? The point really is that God forgave us, so we in turn would be slapping Him in the face if we looked down on or 'judged' any other person. Your fundamental lack of understanding regarding that key point is why you mis-judge literally everything else. I don't believe I'm more righteous than anybody else, whether somebody else is gay, alcoholic, whatever, I'm just as much a sinner as they are... I'm no more righteous than anybody based on my actions, I am only made right with God through Grace and Forgiveness. That being the case, I have no right to view myself as better than anybody else, to look down on anybody else, or to call anybody else a 'sinner'.

And 'reaching out' means purposefully befriending somebody who is an outcast in order to show them love and acceptance they are missing. That's all. If you have a problem with that, I don't know what to say.