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timmah on 12 January 2013
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fordy said:
timmah said:

You're 100% wrong in your statement (as well as for calling me a lemming). If he believed that drinking alcohol was wrong and worked to ensure his children do not drink alcohol, that would not make him bigoted against people who do drink alcohol, your assumption is a logical fallacy. Parents try to instill their moral beliefs of right and wrong into their children, so if he believes homosexual acts are wrong, It is perfectly logical that he could teach his children that doing those acts would be wrong while still instructing them to treat others with dignity and respect REGARDLESS of what their personal choices are. He may not be acting logically when he 'guarantees' his child will not be gay, but it is a leap to say that is bigotry, it is not. I'm not saying for certainty that he is not a bigot, but that you do not have any real evidence to say that he is, so the jump to crying 'bigotry' is kind of pointless.

It's perfectly fine to disagree with people, but jumping to calling people bigots and lemmings is a pretty poor debate tactic, that's my point.

Explain what it is when you post an argument that's an exact carbon copy of one that I answered two days ago. Perhaps I should have just called you lazy instead, for not reading the entire thread before jumping in to attack?

When you can prove to me that a child being gay or having gay thoughts  is just as DIRECTLY harmful to oneself as alcohol (do not provide indirect examples either, because things such as social repression of homosexuality stem from arguments like you're trying to make. The ends doesn't justify the means), then I will agree. However, I think you're treading on a slippery slope here to say that homosexuality to a kid is just as harmful to them as alcohol, drugs, or anything else of the same matter.

Once again, WHY would a parent work to ensure their child isn't gay if their thoughts are that homosexuals are just as equal as heterosexuals? It doesn't make any sense at all. It's like saying "I love anyone, gay or straight, but my son better not become one". Love is proven by actions, not words, and these are not certainly the words of one who would consider homosexuality and heterosexuaity as any kind of equal, and this kind of "I'll tolerate it, but I'll refuse to believe it's equal" actions are where bigotry stems from. Once again, had he said that he hopes his child does not become gay, you'd see that there would not have been such a reaction as witnessed. I'd have thought his ideas were ignorant, but they wouldn't be hurting anyone. Where the line was crossed was an INTENTION TO ACT, by saying he'll be guarantee that his child will not be gay, and before you start any "he hasn't done anything yet" nonsense, consider why attempted murder and intention to murder are still classed as crimes, despite the action of murder not having been performed.

By the way, I love how you start the reply saying Im 100% wrong, but then go on to say that you cannot say for certainty, almost like that you cannot bring yourself to 100% believe your own argument. Cheers.

I posed a hypothetical as a comaprison and you go down that road?? Really? I think you may be not be seeing point I was trying to make as well as not understanding the term 'bigot'. If we follow your logic, it could be considered bigotry to teach our children that any behavior is wrong because somebody, somewhere might think that behavior is ok. If he taught his kids to treat homosexuals badly, or that homosexuals are somehow evil people, that would be bigotry. If he teaches his kids not to do homosexual acts, he's just attempting to teach them his views on morality (just the same as if he told them sex outside marriage is wrong, or any other moral belief).

I'm not presenting an argument that homosexuality is directly harmful, never said that, I was talking specifically about views on morality, never about levels of harm. I'm also not interested in forcing my own views of morality on you or anyone else. I was just saying that, if a parent tries to pass on to their child a belief of right and wrong as they see it, that does not make them a bigot. You clearly are very emotionally charged about this subject, so I'm not sure if it's possible to have a meaningful conversation with you.

Again: MY ONLY POINT WAS THAT THE TERM BIGOT WAS BEING MISUSED IN THIS CASE. Now that you've called one person a bigot, then called me a lemming and lazy... I'm not sure you have the ability to debate in a calm and reasonable manner.

EDIT: In an attempt to put my point in a short, clear synopsis. Teaching your child that an action is wrong is not the same as being bigoted towards individuals or groups who do those actions.