The_vagabond7 said:
senseinobaka said:
You have an idea of what I beleive as a Jehovah's Witness, but I wouldnt describe you as being very familiar. I say this because you touch on some buzz words and ideas, but explain them incorrectly. First of all is Armegeddon. The events leading up to Armageddon according to Revelation is not as you described it. Many of the events have already passed, but the next one according to Revelation to be completed is "god putting it in the heart of governments to destroy false religion." You claim this a bloodthirsty act on God's part, when infact it really isnt. Modern governments, governments installed in the last 100 years, have already been doing this. Both Russia and China are governments that have chosen atheism and purged religion (Russia has stepped back and allowed some practice of religion, but continues an atheist agenda). Many other governments have also outlawed religion. World wide there is a huge downturn in religous belief. It has been a process that is far from bloodthirsty. [[side note]the reason for religions destruction is for the same reason many hate organized religion. Religion is bloodguilty do to wars and execution, they misled with false teachings of god (such as hellfire as I mentioned earlier), and are notoriuos hypocrites. In revelation god describes religion as a harlot[/side note]] . Next you mention the great tribulation. Revelation doesnt say the great tribulation is an act of god, infact it says it is an act of man. The great tribulation is described as being a time with extreme suffering and death. Infact, this man made tribulation is so great that there would be no survivors at all unless god take action. This act of god is what Revelation calls Armageddon. Many beleive Aramgeddon is an apocalypse, when in fact it the thing that saves us from extinction. Armegeddon is not a massacre of men, women and children. You also claim that I beleive as a witness I think only witnesses would survive Armageddon. Again, you are mistaken. Gods action at Armageddon will be with the purpose to save men, not kill men. I've said this before, all men receive the benefits of Christ's ransom. (I'll make this side not; If god selectively kills someone at armegeddon it would be a person who will directly receive second death, or eternal destruction. But this applies to a very, very, VERY small few. The bible only records a couple instances were a person was deserving of that: Adam, Eve, Judas, and the Cities of Sodom and Gomorah. Thats how many were excluded from a resurrection hope in 4000 years of bible history. Armageddon wouldn't be much different, there may be some...but not alot. It's a case where god decides that the individual is not deserving of the ransom.) Also our Door to door ministry is not with the purpose of ensuring someone salvation at armegeddon. It's a bible education work being done that way people can come to truly know about God and His Kingdom. It also teaches what his kingdom will accomplish. This is a necessary action because mainstream christianity doesnt do it. You seem like smeone who is very well read and educated, and it wouldnt suprise me if you had a better understanding of waht the bible teaches than most born and raised christians. The spirit of our ministry is found at John 17:3. And then there's post Armageddon. You acknowledge a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. You are correct. This is the point in history in which all men have the opportunity to live a life free of sin and satan. You claim that only those who died before armageddon will recieve this benefit. You are both right and wrong. The billions before Armageddon will be raised and the billions who survive armageddon will recieve the benefits of ransom (living without the shackles of sin). I feel like I'm writing a novel here, so I'll breifely discuss your objection to the prophecy in Isaiah. The prophecy applies to gods kingdom after armegeddon. It doesnt say anything about what life was like in the animal kingdom before the sin in eden. In fact that's not mentioned anywhere in the bible. But science has, and it shows that animals existed in an ecosystem much like the one today. But you seem to believe that a predatory animal is some how evil. I have to disagree with the premise. God designed a system that is adaptable and changing. It's not static, if it was then all animals would go extinct. I think this animal kingdom argument is actually kind of silly, it's almost as if you are grasping at straws to pin wickedness on god. "Oh look that Lion ate that zebra, how evil is God?" It doesnt make sense to me on any spiritual or scientific level. |
Alright, to continue, senseinobaka. I spent a quite a bit of time studying with witnesses and going to their kingdom halls as part of my religious studies. I know the whole song and dance about being extremely polite to "worldly" people (non-witnesses), witnesses always try to put their best foot forward, but they do believe that they are the only righteous people on an otherwise wicked earth. Any righteous person is drawn to Jehovah, and eventually becomes a Jehovah's witnesses. That's why the ministry is often called "a life saving work". You're going out to seek the righteous. So you can spare me the polite song and dance, I know Witnesses view it as either you are for god or you are for satan, and from your perspective I am very much for satan.
A few leading questions. Who survives armageddon? Worshipers of the true god. Who worships the true god? Do Bhuddists? Islamists? Southern Baptist? Church Of Christ? Shinto? Your answer to those would be a resounding NO. They worship false gods, and are all part of babylon the great, wicked false religion created by Satan. Who worships the true god? Jehovah's Witnesses, and JWs alone. So Who survives armageddon?
Let's see, god doesn't put it into their heart, but rather the governments decide to destroy religion on their own, as we see happening already today. You might want to hit the books and study up. I have the watchtower library (A compilation of almost all witness publications save for a few esoteric ones reserved for elders and pioneers, hard to get unless you know some witnesses and are on good terms with them), so let's take some references (note all references are from Jehovah's witness's own publications, published by the Watchtower and tract society). First off
Revelation 17:16
16 And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast (government), these will hate the harlot (false religion) and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. 17 For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.
and from Kingdom News number 37 "the end of false religion is near!" (I believe you had a large campaign to distribute that door to door all over the world last year)
Soon, though, an amazing event will take place. “The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.” (Revelation 17:16) In a sudden, shocking move, the world’s political powers will turn on false religion and completely destroy her! What will prompt this action? The Bible book of Revelation answers: “God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought.” (Revelation 17:17) Yes, God will call false religion to account for all the despicable acts she has committed in his name. In a stroke of perfect justice, he will use her political paramours as his instrument of execution.
What must you do if you do not want to share the fate of false religion? “Get out of her, my people,” urges God’s messenger. (Revelation 18:4) Indeed, now is the time to flee from false religion! But to where can you flee? Not into atheism, since its future is also bleak. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) The only haven is within true religion. How can you identify true religion?
The part that follows shows how Jehovah's witnesses are the true religion. So yeah, you're being polite because I'm "worldy", but your literature tells a very different story. Not just that one kingdom news, let's see there is also references from the kp(? Not sure what that book is, that's just how it's listed in the watchtower library program) 1-15 from 2004 that states
Will the world’s governments really do such a thing? The Bible states that ‘God will put it into their hearts.’ (Revelation 17:17) It will be sudden, surprising, shocking, not foreseeable or gradual.
Which really shoots your argument of "The government is already doing it, you can see it happening now!" in the foot. It will be shocking, sudden, not forseeable or gradual.
Armaggedon also is not a war where man self destructs, but god saves the day. Last paragraph in the "Insight on the scriptures" book under Har-meggodon states
Har–Magedon is thus seen to be a fight, not merely among men, but one in which God’s invisible armies take part. Its coming is certain and it will take place at the time set by Jehovah God, who “is doing according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth
From the book "revelation it's grand climax at hand" chapter 1 paragraph 5
True, Armageddon is described in the last book of the Bible as “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Revelation 16:14, 16) But it will be far different from a nuclear holocaust! Such a holocaust would likely mean the annihilation of all life on earth. On the contrary, God’s Word gives the happy assurance that only wicked opposers of God will be destroyed—by forces under God’s control. (Psalm 37:9, 10; 145:20) A great crowd of humans, out of all nations, will survive the climax of divine judgment at Armageddon. Christ Jesus will then shepherd and guide these to life everlasting in a paradise earth. Do you not want to be one of them? Happily, Revelation shows that you may be!
God is definately going to be doing some killing. Specifically killing all who do not worship him. Your publications show that the bible refers to armageddon as "god's day of anger", and refer to it as such colloquially. And while I know that your beliefs have changed over the years, all these references are very recent. So either you're just being very polite, or you don't seem to read your own literature very much. Which as somebody that went to the Kingdom Hall for a while, I know that's a big no-no. You need to stay studied up. Next post will deal with the animal issue, which is vital to the subject of god's love, wisdom, power and justice. |
