Evidence for the existence of God

[senseinobaka]

appolose said:

senseinobaka said:

appolose said:

Of course, Death could not be tortured forever. But then again, if the lake of fire is total annihilation, then Death could not be destroyed either, since death is merely a physical process in your context. I would postulate that Death as it is refered to here is meaning, therefore, something else. Now, in Revelations 20:10, it says "And the devil... was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " In Matthew 25:41, concerning the unsaved it states "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angles." Also, on being called the second death: this does not necessarily imply nonexistence. The first death, physical death, does no mean the non-existence of the body, but the seperation of the spirit and the body. So the second death does not mean the nonexistence of anything, as did neither the first. The second death could even be thought of as (you may be aware of this idea) the spirit's seperation from God himself.

1) Death is very destroyable. Remember death is the result of Adamic Sin and Jesus Ransom repurchases us from adamic sin. Under God's kingdom Adamic Sin and Death will no longer exist. They will be destroyed.

2 )You mention Rev 20:10. You obviously understand who the devil is, but do you know who the beast and prophet is? That entails a very long discussion of revelation that I'm not going to get into. But I will mention something I said later in the post you quoted. The lake of fire and the lake of burning sulfur are allusions or references to an actual place that tangibly existed. The place is called Gehenna and it was a trash dump that was on fire 24/7 and smelt as sulfur. It pictures destruction as if by fire, or a ceasing to exist. Second Death, from which there is no ressurection.

3)Torment is translated from the "basanistes" It literally means 'jailers'. The idea being that Satan's imprisonment to everlasting destruction is indeed torment. It is different than the idea of torture and suffering that is derived from the greek word "basanizo" which literally means 'test by the proving stone or torture.'

4)Eccl. 9:4-6,10 specifically mentions the state of those who die from adamic sin. The are not conscious of anything. The are simply dead. The teaching of an immortal soul is not found within the bible. That is another "weed" that was infiltrated from the Hellenic religions. If you want proof turn your bible to Genesis 2:7. Here the bible specifically says that God breathed the breath of life and the man came to be a living soul. It does not say that the man was giving an immortal soul. The word soul is derived from the Hebrew word "nephesh" which literally means 'a breather; being' and the greek word "psyche". Nephesh describes living things, such as humans and animals. The word does not describe spirit creatures. Spirit creatres are described by the word "ruach" in hebrew and "pneuma" in Greek and are never used to describe any part of a human.

5)Second death does represent eternal destruction. Those going thru second death have no hope of resurrection. They will be destroyed forever. Those going thru second death are said to be thrown into the garbage dump gehenna, the place that burns with sulfur, and destroyed (not tortured).

 

Death isn't destroyable, as one cannot destroy a process, as destruction would entail a tangible object, not process. Also, again I do not think that usage of the word Death refers to that in that way. Concerning the allusion to Gehenna; I would say that he was using that place to compare it to another place, one that also existed, just as tangible, as is heaven and anything else spiritual. Also I would disagree with your statement that that it represents nonexistence; I see no inference of that idea in the imagery. The immortal soul is mentioned in the Bible. 2nd Cor. 5:8 syas when one is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord. How could one be absent from all that he is? Nor is that a ressurection, if it was, then the body would be present with the Lord. Furthermore, if Christ's death and adamic death are only bodily consequnce, then how are the unsaved going to go through judgement and a second death? They couldn't be around for that, since they were not resurrected. Concerning the literal meaning of nepesh; for the man, it entails more than just physical life. It was man and only man that received the breath of life, only man that was made in His image, not the animals. Of course, God has no physical image, so that can't be what God is referring to. Also, as men are not wholly spiritual creatures, the Bible would not refer to them in the "ruach" and "pneuma" words. Also, since Satan and humans will be thrown into the same place, why would one group be destroyed and the other imprisoned only? Finally, what does "eternal" destruction mean" If it means gone forever, then just "destroyed" would suffice.

I think you are purposefully missing the point. Rev 20 and 21 are very specific on what will happen to death. Rev 21:4 spells it out word by word. "Death will be no more." Anyway you slice it, the bible teaches that death will cease to exist under God's Kingdom.

Gehenna = destruction or nonexistence because everything that is thrown into Gehenna are things/entities that god is getting rid of eternally. Satan, angels that follow satan, people that follow satan, death, the grave (hades), Rev 21:4 enumerates other things such as suffering, pain, sickness, and sorrow. Think of it illustratively, Gods kingdom is Jerusalem (not the actual city), often called new Jerusalem, and all the things that will not be in New Jerusalem will be placed into Gehenna, Jerusalem's trashcan.

You mention a concern that if adamic death is just physical then unbelievers wouldnt get judged. I have found that many christians harbor this feeling that it would be terrible if all the unbelievers didnt get whats coming to them. Personally, as a christian I think this attitude shows a sense of resentment to others. And it's contrary to what the bible teaches. First, gods feeling about humans is recorded at 1 Tim 2:3,4 where it is said that it is gods will that all sorts of men be saved, not just those professing religous zealotry. It isnt gods desire to judge people adversely and destroy them, he wants them to live. This is further illustrated by what is said at Acts 24:15 where it specifically says that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Both groups enjoy the ransom sacrafice and are made clean from adamic sin when they die. This is a hard concept for many christians to get, but Romans says that when someone dies no matter how much of a sinner they were, they are forgiven of there sins because death is the price they owe. Professed christians don't like this bible teaching because it doesnt punish and torture the unbelievers in eternal hellfire, an attitude that is not christian at all.

 

The Bible's teachings on Soul creatures and Spirit Creatures is very involved. This may not be the proper forum to discuss these teachings, but I would be happy to if you want. I want to mention a few things about it in response to your post tho. Just some tidbits.

1)You feel that 2 Cor has to only be talking about an immortal soul, despite the lack of any use of the word in any form. 2 Cor 5 is a chapter that has alot of information and one scripture taken out of context does not paint the picture.

2)You claim that humans are some kind of soul/spirit hybrid. Genesis does not say that. They are just a soul.

3)Soul in modern laguage has taken on a very different meaning then the language used in the bible. Today soul literally means spirit. In the bible soul and spirit are seperate kind of creatures. I like to think in a scientific way, so let me use the example of taxonomy.

Science has identified 5 Kingdoms of animals. I will like to submit that there is a category above Kingdom. Lets call it Realm. In this Category there are two columns. Column 1 is Soul and includes the 5 Kingdoms we know. Column two is Spirit and under that we have the different spirit creatures that the bible talks about; Angels, Cherubs, Jesus, and God which is Jehovah or Yahweh in hebrew. Humans, us, are clearly classigied as being in the realm of soul and the kingdom of animal. We dont cross that realm line in anyway.