How to Destroy an Athiests in a argument! (Updated with poll)

[kanageddaamen]

Allfreedom99 said:

kanageddaamen said:

Allfreedom99 said:

Mnementh said:
What? Why does it defy logic to say some basic physical laws existed all the time?

 

What are laws? They establish a certain process of order. How then can a law that dictates a process of order exist without the intelligence to establish it?

Why evidence is there that a process of order has to be established by something intelligent?  Your argument is circular:

1.) An intelligence created the process of order of the universe.
2.) The universe follows a process of order
3.) The universe was created by something intelligent

Why is it easier to believe that a magical invisible man has existed forever, but the nature of the cosmos, something observable and around you, has not

It is not some "invisible man" that I would liken the Creator to as if he is some old aged guy with a beard having a good time watching what happens on earth while sitting back eating popcorn. I liken God to a omnipotent being who is also Omnipresent.

Science uses the bases of observation. I would ask the same question of you. Why when you look around you seeing us as complex living organisms, our solar system, air, gravity, the vast deep universe with laws that all work together establishing order do you not see it as an amazing creation by a vastly intelligent Omniscient creator? We are here alive as a product of something.

Products are a result of an intelligent influence. When we look at solar systems, galaxies, our bodies we see order, purpose, and enginuity. How, then can you look at it and say that its all just the reslut of a random happens chance that the coding for everythign we see occuring now was all directly written in the very beginnings of the universe without any intelligent influence whatsover?

That is why in the realm of science it defies logic.

Howeve you visualize your god to you is irrelevant.  Why is the assumption that a god exists and is eternal is completely fine to you yet the posibility of eternal matter is insane?  

You keep making these claims as things being only from intelligent sources and I dispute that conclusion.  What evidence is there that laws, or products, can only come from intelligence.

I also don't view the universe as all that complex.  I just feel its simplicity has yet to be understood.  All of matter is composed of small elementary particles that interact with each other (and space-time) in very specific ways.  All complexity is just natural consequences of the properties of those molecules interacting with each other on a grand scale.  Think of an ocean of water with turbulent waves spread out over thousands of miles.  It all seems very chaotic and complex, yet the way two individual water molecules interact with each other is not all that complicated.  Its just that interaction taken to a massive scale.  throw in some forces from wind, gravity, and lunar pull and poof, you have some seeming complexity.

Complexity is also largely subjective.  What we deem complex is simply so because of the limits to our intelligence.

 

EDIT: I can give a better example.  Check out the "Mandlebrot set"

It is a fractal image of infite scalability, self-similarity and seemily endless complex patterns.  However, this apparant complexity arises from some very simple interactions:

use the function Xn = (X(n-1))^2+c
c is an imaginary number defined by a point on the cartesian coordinate system.
If the function does not escape to infinity while iterating, it is part of the set.

From those simple rules you get things like the following.  Perceived complexity from actual simplicity: