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richardhutnik on 13 October 2012
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insomniac17 said:
richardhutnik said:

The text goes and explains why it was needed for those who believe don't perish.  It isn't there to explain HOW one ends up getting it.

What you said is better for describing it, but ends up getting real close to salvation by human effort, or sincerity of effort, rather than the works being a fruit of God in the life of a person active by the person trusting.  And also a matter of trust, the real faith that matters, is devoid there.  That is faith as mental affirming, rather than trust.  The problem by telling people they need to accept a message is the real matter of who accepts what is in the wrong area, and the isuse of real faith (trust) is missing also.  And this is the issue I have with it.  Maybe others but this is what is at the top of my mind now on the subject.

But why does it explicitly state that whoever believes won't perish but will have eternal life?

I meant it not to come across as salvation through human effort, but by accepting God's gift of salvation. I tried to explain just what I think that means, but I do believe that no matter how good you are in this life, you will never be good enough in God's eyes. This has been a common theme from every Christian I have personally asked, which I know is anecdotal evidence. If this is true (that no human effort can lead to salvation), then the only deciding factor left that I can think of is faith. That is why I made the claim that to be saved, you must accept Jesus' sacrifice. Doing so requires only that you accept the gift that God has offered to you.

If one does something for a certain type of person, so that bad things don't happen, it doesn't mean that what they did is the only thing necessary for the person to not have bad things happen.  And the Bible calls for more than people mentally affirming certain information being valid.  There is also a LARGE part to the Christian message of salvation, that goes beyond just eternal life.   And, I think it is far better to not poll people on what the lowest common denominator is for what is called for, when stating what the nature of Christian salvation is.

And to be saved, there is a LOT to it.  It is done by grace through faith, and persevering and so on.  It is done by abiding and resting in Christ.  There is also an emptying of oneself. And then there is bearing fruit.  All this fits in.  It isn't just a matter of mentally affirming what was done as being valid, but by responding in the way the Bible lays out, as dictated by Christian tradition.  The proper responding is the measure of whether a person has a right faith or not.

And if one wants to say it is a free gift to be received, that is fine and Biblical.  But then, one is asked how it is received.  And that opens up a lot of things, and how to, and can be a lot of things.  Even things with no cost can have conditions associated with them.  It would be like, if I said I had a million dollars for you, and you ask how you can get it, and I say "accept it".  You could then go around telling people you have a million dollars, accepting it.  It doesn't mean you have it, because you didn't receiving.

Of course, if you want me to open up a can of worms here, I will.  Want to know the Biblical pattern of salvation, and how one gets into relationship with Christ, receives the Spirit of God, and then communes with Christ and becomes partakers of everything of the Kingdom?  It certainly isn't a prayer.  It is baptism.  Baptism is the proper response to the gospel message.  This is in the Bible, and it is also in keeping with Christian tradition.  Of course, if you merely want to frame salvation as escaping hell, and having Jesus as your best bud so you can hang out with him, then sure believe that the response to the gospel is a prayer or even mentally affirming a message to be true.  But that is not in keeping with the Bible, or Christian tradition.

As for the can of worms, I really don't care.  You are free to believe whatever it is like.  That in no way means that it is what is of God or approved.