happydolphin said:
I get a bad vibe from your tone, honestly. I can't see through my computer but you seem upset. Anyway, I'll read the rest of your post and edit when done. EDIT: Now to actually comment on the post content. Well, let's put the Mr Khan aside because I'm debating that with him atm. For the record, I am strongly disagree with calling natural death a murder. A tsunami death is not a murder, nor is a non human-induced miscarriage. Murder is will to kill out of an evil intent, or out of ignorance of human wrongdoing, imho. So you won't win me using that value-system.
As for the article, I did remind you that I underlined a sentence in the article, I will post it again and I want you to show me how it does not say what I read: http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/news/20030605/how-stress-causes-miscarriage "June 5, 2003 -- Stress has long been suspected as a possible cause ofmiscarriage, with several studies indicating an increased risk among women reporting high levels of emotional or physical turmoil in their early months of pregnancy or just before conception. But while a relationship has been noted, researchers didn't know exactly how a woman's stress could cause miscarriage." So, and I quote: 1) "Stress has long been suspected as a possible cause of miscarriage." 2) "studies indicate: increased risk in women reporting high levels of emo or physi turmoil in early moths of preg or just before conception." In both cases, it doesn't mention anything of restricting the finding to women with high cortisol levels (unless there's a segment of the article I missed that says what you're saying). Either way, it is same diff because even a woman who does not regularly have high cortisol level, yet develops it for a period due to trauma, nothing says that she is not prone to the same fate? The relationship between the factor and the outcome exists, so what makes you restrict it to women with naturally high cortisol levels? |
It is important for yout o answer the question that I put to you. Why did you bring that case up? Were you trying to defend the idea that he has some sense in saying that a woman's body has ways of "shutting it down"?
I can only imagine you were, especially given that you danced around answering that question.
I'm going to go slowly because I believe you might not understand terminology.
Relationship here refers to correlation, meaning that as stresses in the four categories listed increase "pre conception mental/preconception physical/postconception mental/postconception physical", so does miscarriage. It further says in your own link "it is not understood exactly how a woman's stress could cause a misconception".
Correlation does not equal causation. It simply points out that one factor exists concurrently with the other. It even says in plain English "Stress has long been suspected...but while a relationship has been noted, researchers didn't know exactly how a woman's stress could cause miscarriage."
If that's not enough I'll point out that your study does not specifically correlate rape of any kind to miscarriage. The results are specifically broad: physical or emotional trauma both post conception and pre conception. It is phrased this way because it needs to cast as wide a net as possible for the correlation to be statistically significant. Trauma in this sense literally and specifically refers to all the various types of anguish present. Accidental injury, assault, falling down stairs, depression, organ failure, domestic abuse, job loss...the list goes on and on. To try and select a specific instance and say that it applies goes directly against the study results. As someone who has done studies, each variable is tested individually and then together as well. Had relationships existed for specific instances, they would have been mentioned, and explained, yet they themselves admit they cannot. Saying "trauma leads to miscarriage" is like saying "walls are hard". It is in the benefit of the researcher to be as specific in correlation as possible, so that something new can be "discovered", like for example, rape leads to miscarriage. It is niether my own nor the study's responsibility to tell you everything that is not specifically unique. You are the one using a specific example.
If you are not saying this, then I apologize for misconstruing your argument, but I would then have to assume that you simply and specifically meant to express the extremely superficial comment that "trauma is correlated to miscarriage". I would then have to remind you that this in no way helps whatever it is the rep meant, and is even less necessary to link a study to it.
Look Happy, my point simply is that you cannot prove that a woman can shut down her body in response to rape. Everyone is different and can handle levels of stress differently. Everyone has different tolerance levels, and coping emchanisms. Even desire plays a part. Because there is such variation in how people can handle stress, you will never be able to sufficiently prove that women can shut themselves down, and rightly so. This is exactly why your study doesn't say that it can. Stress is PRESENT among miscarriages, but is it not also the threat of miscarriage or first time pregnancy that can also cause the stress? I would point out that the example is self-fulfilling. Knowing that stress can miscarry can raise stress and miscarry. Doubly so, perhaps a body that KNOWS a miscarriage is happening (sub-conscious) can create cortisol. You can likely have both stress affecting miscarriage and miscarriage affecting stress.
I don't know what else I can say. Perhaps I am a complete retard and cannot explain myself or the evidence properly. Nothing in that study proves your point. It simply says that events that CAN SOMETIMES cause stress, can cause miscarriage. Miscarriage happens all the time, even without stress.
There is probably only one possible thing that he's saying that makes sense. In "legitimate rape" where a female is very violently assaulted and beaten, miscarriage is likely to occur. And it's not related to stress, it's related to internal injuries. However, the majority of rape is more along the lines of drugging, or threat of violence, or peer pressure/blackmailing, wherein violence almost never occurs, the liklihood does not increase unless the rape is a more persistent ongoing ritual.
