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richardhutnik on 10 June 2012
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mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
Now, if one does look to the Old Testament, the government of Israel was pretty much a theocracy, for all practical purposes.  It was an anarchist one with the Judges running about, and no natural king, to the more normal view of a theocracy when Israel got a King.  In this, the government did the role of the church there, and people's tithes and offerings were roughly equivalent to taxes we have now.  The tithes and offerings ran the government of Israel, and was used to pay the priests and other offerings.  If one wants to argue that this model is Biblical for government, then one can argue taxes collective and given in welfare (redistribution of wealth and income) is Biblical.  If one wants to argue more for a separation of church and state, and view it as more New Testament favored, then one could say this isn't so.

I figured I would run this thread here, to see what people of religious belief on here had, and then see people come out, if they were opposed to any form of government run welfare, as to what they saw as the alternative, even flat out arguing that those who are poor deserve to be where they are, because it fit God's will.

1. Very much agree with the first paragraph. I was going to include a citation of 1 Timothy 2:2 as a reference to such a state. As per the New Testament, there is really no argument for church involvement in the affairs of the state. Having said this, I would go further as to argue that when welfare is incorporated into the workings of the government, they have (arguably) usurped the affairs and goals of the church in one aspect of Christianity. It'd be no different if the state were to create or promote its own religion in opposition to Christianity.

2. The thing about the Old Testament and social welfare is that God's commandment in Deuteronomy actually avoids the Theocratic government entirely. This is a very unique aspect of social welfare in the OT. Almost every commandment was given with the authority of the Temple to execute judgements from the laws of the Pentatuch.

Here's the citation in Deuteronomy 26:12-13:

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12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. 13 Then say to the Lord your God: “I have removed from my house the sacred portion and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them.

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You'll notice that no authority was given to the government to execute the order - it was a command directly from God to the Israelites, and for them to act upon it. No funds were given to a central entity to re-distribute, but directly from the halves to the halve-nots. Additionally, if you read the context, it outlines where tithe is to go: two years of tithe to the government/church, and one directly to the needy and the Levites. Therefore, the Biblical model of welfare is a full separation of the government and actual re-distribution.

I hope I wrote what I wrote correctly.  What I said was that the pre-Kings era of Israel was a Theocracy in an anarchist sense.  It was literally God on top as the King of the people, with some Judges going about.  It was not done through men administering, but between God and men.  It isn't what people normally think as a theocracy, which is the later period, which consist of middlemen in the name of God doing everything.

Applied today, questions arise in regards to the application.  If the people of a nation elect to use government to practice the redistribution of income to help the poor, is this for or against the will of God?  I am not sure if much thought is even given to this, based on how the political talk goes about.