The Logical Flaw of Prayers

[richardhutnik]

appolose said:

richardhutnik said:

One can look at what the original post involved and then take the inverse in that, if God's will happens anyway, what is the point of doing anything, but just let God do it?  Why bother to try to help the poor, since God will do it?  There are people who have theological and philosophical beliefs that people deserve where they are (Job, in the Bible, is a strong refutation of this), so there is no point in helping the poor.  Life has to work itself out, and you need to have behavior punished so there is less of it.  Thus, you cut welfare and whatnot, so you get less people on welfare.  It all fits into a form of determinism.

In regards to prayer, it is entirely possible, theologically, to have it that God wants people to ask first, and knows who will ask, and then when asked for it happens.  The involvement with the person in prayer is part of God doing things.  If one assumes that God wants some interaction with the human race, this is how it would work.

What actually is more interesting, and useful, out of this thread, is discussing a main point of the post from an angle of, "Is prayer all that God wants?"  What I believe is seen, and I wrote on prior here, is that there is WAY too much God on the margins in life, that God isn't as real.   The entire "God being real" actually becomes a racket some churches use to get people to attend.  Sunday morning is an entire "God is real" show, that has little to no impact on the rest of the week.  Well, it makes people more evangelically, so they will sign John 3:16 at the end of the work email, but does it make any lasting difference, or can a person say they built a life on what God really wanted?  I believe the discussions of wisdom flow out of this.  Bible says God says to pray for wisdom, so it becomes down to asking God in a time of crisis what to do.  That isn't wisdom, that is a decision.  Wisdom is understanding, and you see in Proverbs where wisdom is not something sought during a crisis, but something sought all the time, because you want understanding.  Of course, this goes over people's heads because they just want a quick fix and get on with their lives.  It all ends up marginal lip service, at best.  Oh yes, there is adoration of Jesus.  

I will go with Bill Maher on this and say merely adoring Jesus makes you a fan, not really a disciple of him:

That is not an untrue criticism; most religous adherents (at least here in the US) have a religion of self, treating whatever they believe to be true as a means to benefit themselves.  In various Christian circles, many teachings that sound quite Christian at first, if closely examined, are inherently selfish.  For example, often I hear about how to live so that "God does great things through you," and, more often than not, the focus is not so much that great things are being done but that one can achieve that status or level of success.

As a person who has an interested in actually practicing and living the life Jesus would be interested in, I do find what happens with Christianity in America annoying, really annoying.  People confuse being a fan of Jesus with being a Christian.  And I see churches pander to this, out of fear of not being able to pay the rent.  With the financial meltdown and lots of people suffering, its placating middle class individuals with marginal teaching that tweak and enrich lives, but don't call for a new foundation (and a means of doing it), really leave me perplexed.  I guess i get annoyed at it in the same way I see how conservatism has been dumbed down immensely by the likes of Fox News and Newscorps offerings.  And then there is a fusion who argue about a "War on Christmas" and miss more major issues.  And then I see hybrid individuals who will argue "Islam is evil" and then go off and say Jesus has nothing to say on economics  or whatever, but they are Christians.  Really?

So, in this, I guess the many will be surprised on Judgement Day would end up being very likely true.