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Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
 

1) Corporations are not a collection of people however. They are legally a seperate entity from their members - this gives them certain protections but also certain restrictions. They simply are not legally at all the same as something like the ACLU.

2) Like almost all freedoms it is and should be restricted at the point where it damages other freedoms. This is evident in libel, slander laws for example and also not legal to say things that are likely to cause harm (eg. falsely shout fire in a public theatre). In this case too much free speech destroys political freedom - it is not possible to have free and fair elections when an overwhelming media campaign is launched.

Also your link (the freakonomics one) only contains one actual researcher as far as I can see and his research is contradicted by

http://www.uky.edu/~clthyn2/PS671/Gerber_1998APSR.pdf

http://www.kenbenoit.net/pdfs/Jacobson1978.pdf

Which also contradict each other (but both say that election spending does increase votes) but both recommend spending caps in elections.

3) So you don't think that the corporate lobbying groups huge pockets are influencing these bills at all? I can't prove that there would be much less support in congress for the bills without  their money - but I'm pretty confident that it would be the case.

 

 

Edit: Basically there are two reasons I oppose corporations being able to put huge money into political campaigns.

1. It encourages corruption.

2. It causes an election to no longer be fair.


1) No, they're still groups of people... see.... the supreme court.  Even the disenters in the court agreed to this fact.

2)  My link had numererous experts and research in it....

3)  Bills?  The question was elections.  Sure lobbying effects bills.  So does calling your congressmen and wiring him a letter, so does, pretty much anything everywhere.  Bringing in an expert to talk about why they think SOPA is a good idea of course sways congressmen.  No reason congressmen shouldn't be able to talk to experts and people in the fields they plan to effect though.  A campaign of regular voters however, holds more power then a coroporate lobby, as shown by those bills you mentioned that get defeated whenever the public pays attention.

1) Then they should lose their privileges such as limited liability that they gain from being seperated from their members.

2) I read through it, was pretty tired though and may have missed some stuff. Mostly it seemed to be from people who were 'experts' but not researchers.

3) Yes but the money now allows people to fund the election of sympathetic legislators. Also as legislators do remember who helped fund them, there will certainly be a bit of 'quid pro quo' going on with the corporations in the future.

1) The ACLU is a limited liability company too...

2) They had a few researcherse there, espiecally the last guy.

3) Not really..   If I plan to go into office and lower the buisness tax, and companies fund my campaign, and then I lower the buisness tax... is that Quid Pro Quo?

No.  Quid pro Quo assumes that an action is taken that would not otherwise be taken without the orginal action.   IE, if i plan to go into office to raise the buisness tax, i get funding from companies and instead lower it.   THAT is quid pro quo.

As it is, there is enough lobby on all sides that one doesn't need to compromise their positions to get elected.

Compromising of positions tends to happen instead to make yourself viable to the electorate.


1) Is it? Then it shouldn't be able to spend unlimited amounts of money on political advertising.

(In fact in my opinion, nobody should be able to spend unlimited amounts of money on political advertising)

2) It's a way up the quote tree but I think I mentioned that there only seemed to be one researcher? (which was the last guy)

3) A few things here - quid pro quo does happen, politicians will support ideas that they wouldn't otherwise due to money. We actually had it happen in NZ just recently, a politician (John Banks who is a right scumbag and happily is so mired in scandal right now that it will be a miracle if he survives) was extremely anti-gambling until he happened to get a donation from a casino (which he abused a loophole to claim as an 'anonymous' donation). Now he never says anything against gambling...

The other idea that because the lobby groups somehow 'balance out' it's somehow ok, I disagree with that idea fundamentally. If something is wrong but happens to work that doesn't make it right. In any case I severely doubt that the environmental lobby has as much money as big oil, that the net freedom lobby has as much money as big media or that the health lobby has as much money as big tobacco.

1) You've given no actual credible reason as to why however.  Additionally, how does this apply to the internet?  How do you just stop people from making their own fliers and posting them?

It's a stupid thing to try to prevent because it's literally NOT preventable and just taking aribtrary means to prevent something that doesn't need prevention.

2) Read it again.  The very beggining has research as well.  Additionally... did you read the studies you linked?

They didn't really take into account causality...(unlike the other studies) and the second one if it was correct if anything makes it sound like a GOOD thing.  Since it suggests that it helps challengers win.  Which when you have something like a 90% retention rate on a congress pretty much EVERYBODY thinks sucks at it's job... sounds like a good thing.  

Though for causality, Frontrunners get more donations.  It's not that campaign spending creates votes, it's that votes create campaign spending!  Heck, look at the Republican Primaries... campaign contributions tend to lag behind actual poll results.  Herman Cain?  Broke as a joke, until AFTER he shot up in the polls, then he got a bunch of money... then he nosedived.

These studies don't take into account when and why someone got popular.

3) 

A) Are you sure that's the chain of events?  Or did he change his point of view, and then get support via casinos.  There has been quite a strong world wide "legalize gambling" initative going on ever since the global downturn.  Numerous polticians have changed their tune, for example in the US a number of states are suddenly getting casinos that beforehand weren't going to.

B)  How do you know that was what did it?    What voters care about is by far the biggest "Deformation" of what politicians believe... always has, always will be.  Even if the rare cases of quid pro quo, outside the incredibly stupid, it's only going to be about issues people don't care about anyway.

Nah, real quid pro quo ain't got nothing to do with Campaign Contributions.  It's way too small a thing to be needed.  Nah something like "Amakudari".  Life after political office is where Quid Pro Quo works out.  Something like Chris Dodd and his sweetheart loans getting preferential treatment and a Dodd Frank act that will make two big too fail even bigger, or Chris Dodd magically getting a job right outta congress as head of the RIAA.  Shit that's already illegal but happens anyway.

C) Great exception to the rule....

 

And while there isn't as much money on both sides... there is more then enough.  As like IQ, it's not a matter of how much you have, but having enough.

 

Though actually I would point out, the enviromental lobby probably actually does have more money... depending on the issue.  Since a lot of the enviromental lobby includes the oil lobby.  That's the other thing, the big "block" lobbies actually tend to lobby against each other.

 

For example, Dodd Frank, while complained about by banks... generally only gets universal complaints about the Voelker rule, which was added on seperately, because it gives US banks a competitive disadvantage against europeon banks.

The rest is pretty kept quiet about because it gives big banks a HUGE advantage over small banks.

 

Of course, if your really worried about government corruption, there is an easy way to stop it.  Limit what your government can do.  The less power, the less corruption.