padib said:
I didn't bash atheism. I bashed Runa, that's all. In my post against secularism, I didn't bash athiests, nor did I even bash atheism. I simply stated (and yes I did reread myself) that on a larger scale, an attitude of "rebellion" (obviously in my eyes against God) is one that will lead to the breakdown of social structure as a whole. I also gave common modern day examples to support my claim. For the full post, see here -> http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4295727 Of course this is a generalization, and no it doesn't apply to all atheists, it barely applies to atheism. It rather mostly applies to secularism, which is what I actually said in my post, before my words were twisted. The examples I provided were the core of the post, not the generalization. Many secularists today have a wonderful outlook on life, and if you do then good for you. If I made the mistake to lump you in a category that doesn't resemble that, my apologies, but you have yet to supply the quote (I haven't read it yet). And don't use the mirror posts I gave to Runa, they were purely for demonstration and barely a reflection of my actual beliefs. I was returning fire for fire, you should understand that by now. As for this: "I believe he is real, and the proof that he is lies in the fact that when I deny his existence, those very values disappear before my very eyes." Take this as a personal statement, I don't apply it to all non-believers. Yes I'm aware many areligious folks have a fantastic sense of morality. Granted and you can quote me on it. @bolded I gave you the examples of Nazi germany, I gave you Soviet Russia. People will tell you they are based on Catholicism but that is pure bullocks. If you don't believe me, just read up on your history. It may have vestiges of it, but the core of the issue had to do with racial discrimination (general, extra-religious), the idea of Eugenics (for Germany), and control/power for Soviet Russia. Great contrast to Sweden et al. Again, do your best to look at all the facts and try not to nitpic! @taste of meaning. I mean stop beating around the bush, stop sugar-coating, saying things as they are with no fluff, no embelishment. Sparing us all the annoyance and heart-ache some of these threads can cause and getting right to the core. That's what I mean. @My point exactly. The point I'm trying to make is that if you take God out of the equation, what are you left with really? A relative moral code, relative to each person. So long as this works I'm okay with it, but you need to see farther than that. There are people living their ordinary lives, and then there are people leading evil lives (God or no God). That evil, if you take God out of the equation, how do you recognize it if you deny its existence? Will you call it a mental disorder? You will treat it with pills and treatment, but will never get to the bottom of the issue. That's where religion comes in handy. Because evil is real, and it is spiritual, the day you will be faced with it, you won't know what to do. The other tragedy is that you may be living a lie, just as religious people may be living a lie. Until all is proven certain that there just is no God, 0 doubt, completely and convincingly observable, an openness on the matter is needed. Again, I repeat, the existence of evil is what can perplex a society that has no notion of God or of the supernatural. Yes there are negatives points in religion I will not deny it. Yes there are negative points in secularism and in atheism. I think we all need to take the time to look at ourselves in the mirror and look at those issues, and be humble about them. Without that we all fail this thread. |
You phrased it a lot harsher earlier on :/ But ok. Look, this isn't an opinion. You are wrong. There isn't an attitude of "rebellion" agaisnt god, no one is rebelling, people are just thinking maybe they don't exist or that it doesn't seem likely. And secular societies don't lead to social structure breaking down, I can show you many examples of the most succesful nations in the world that have a very small amount of religious people. You can't blame or link the crimes of communism with atheism or secularism, you can't. It's not the fault of atheism or secularism, it's the fault of an oppressive government that wants to be seen as god.
If you take God out of the equation, you are left with all previous morals as they were here BEFORE religion and you are left with people having less reason to hate eachother and blow each other up. What else would we lose? People having a sense of community when they go to church/mosque etc. People who are afraid of death being conforted by the idea of an afterlife and more, I know we also lose the good parts about a belief in God, but they are replaceable.
People don't get their morals from religion (apart from fundies), they pick and choose what fits with their own moral code, this is a good thing, otherwise many christians would support slavery and kill their neighbor if he works on a sunday. If we didn't take the good from the bible and reject the bad, christian nations would look a lot like the middle east. And if we didn't have the bible at all, we would lose a lot of the sense of culture that secular nations have. (I still celebrate easter and christmas, I guess christmas isn't fully christian though).
I can understand what I view as evil based on my own moral code that comes from mostly my own empathy and understanding of others , not from a religious book and fear of god. So does everyone else. Nobody looks at the crimes of Stalin and Hitler and thinks "the bible/god said this is evil, so it is". They think it is wrong without a thought of god, they know it is evil based on their own moral code. So yes, we can understand what evil is, and I don't think it's spiritual, if you think it is, fine, but please don't state that as fact.
About living a lie, well to me it seems that I'm living with the best knowledge about our world that we have (science), and the best moral code that we have (based on empathy and understanding) and I'm not closed on the matter of god, I don't know why you think that, I think it's possible ofcourse, I highly doubt it's a god of any religion, but creator if it did exist. The existence of evil doesn't perplex me. I think it comes from deep rooted issues within a person, if it doesn't, then it could be that the person hasn't developed empathy, which is the basis of our morality (imo). It can be recognized as a mental illness, It should be treated with pills if it can, and that person should be judged in this life, by us, not by the possibility of a god that will send him to hell. How do we judge him? Based on the empathy we feel for the victim (among other factors ofcourse).
EDIT: Just read this.
Secularism claims to have brought the emancipation of women. What has feminism brought to our society? Grief mostly! Men can't handle their partners, and many marriages crumble because women don't understand their place.
Yeah, I keep my bitch in the kitchen where she belongs. But seriously, that's totally NOT TRUE! (again). Equal relationships tend to work BETTER and last longer. It may bring grief to YOU, but not to anyone I've ever met. People love the fact that women are equal to men, as they should be in this society. We are passed the hunter-gatherer days of what? 20,000 years ago?
