Wall Street Protests

[Kasz216]

richardhutnik said:

badgenome said:

richardhutnik said:

It is important to also understand that, it is folly to believe that mass cultural stupidity, in a bad set of values that preaches, "The only way to get ahead is a college education", isn't going to impact you in some way, if that is the norm.  To not believe this is so is to live some sort of objectivist reality that believes you can form a large enough gated wall and keep yourself safe.

In a relative free society, with elected officials by people, and the ability to organize and address grievances, it is imperative that one not just say "it is the government's fault", because the government IS the byproduct of the collective wishes of the masses, and an attempt to manage their desires.  And if they are collectively stupid, expect to suffer as a result, even if you weren't part of it.  I know, you long for a society where it is TOTALLY merit driven, where bad mistakes a punishes to such a degree it theoretically deters.   But, you don't live in such a world now, nor would the mass of people tolerate such a system without any form of a safety net.

As for enforcing this stupidity, the norm for people is to go get jobs somewhere, and be middle and upper class.  Well, guess what happens without the degree?  Well, the average person will be denied an ability to interview without the debt bomb degree, ANY debt bomb degree.  You have laziness embedded in the system by companies, and social conventions built on this.  All the government stupidity you rail against now is merely reenforcing this societial stupidity.  Well, the word is getting out slowly here.  And eventually the system will collapse.

I agree with pretty much all of that, except I still think that that doesn't make such people victims. Or, it does, but they're victims in much the same way that spoiled children are victims of bad parenting: they're victims, but not particularly sympathetic ones, and their only chance of turning around their lives is to get a hard dose of reality.

And that's my big beef with OWS. I don't see this as a group of people who are belatedly upset by the feds enabling corporate irresponsibility; I see it as a bunch of people who, by and large, just want the feds to enable them to be just as irresponsible as the banks.

I was watching a live stream of people working on petitioning view points.  A discussion point was advocating personal responsibility as part of it.  What is going on is that the initial voices there would end up being those of leftists, and anarchists, who feel shut out.  The initial movement would draw that in.  But if you view the entire liberal "so opened minded their brains fall out" then there is an ability to be able to engage in this.  It would benefit to move beyond simple stereotypes here.  Engaging helps.  See what exactly is useful in this, rather than turning a blind eye would also help.  Going in with your own signs that would steer the message differently would help also.  I know where I was, first week out, it was carboard and magic markers and create your own message.  In this, OWS could end up morphing into more general Occupy with a more balanced message.  Will say, if one is concerned about it being coopted it might happen, but if it can, then anyone can shape it however.

Ok, consider that my own spin on it, and maybe to idealistic.

To me it seemed like the reveres was true.  When it began it seemed like about 1/4th or so of the protesters were the Ron Paul crew.

As the crowd has grown it's grown more leftest in attitude making the few people who actually know stuff about the economy generally drowned out as the general assembly becomes to big to allow everyone to speak, and it's steered by the original organizers who have a bit of a communal communist style bent to them.

As for engaging people, it's kinda hard to engage people who are hysterical and generally lack a basic foundation on which to explain economic matters.