sapphi_snake said:
@Joelcool7:
Umm yah Sapphi in which way is torturing anyone moral?
I don't know, ask christians. Actually, I do know, the ideea is rooted in christian ideology.
While torture is condoned in certain scriptures it is not common practice in the New Testiment. Anyone with a basic knowledge of Christianity knows that it revolves around the New Testiment and acts of Jesus Christ. There remains a few cases of torture in the New Testiment can't argue there. But the majority of the methods used by the European countries were not founded in Christianity.
Well it wasn't Christian Europe either sure the population largely considered themselves Christian.
The main problem with this argument is that the Church actually ran Europe.
Wow you need a history lesson. Yes the church was very powerful in Europe but the Governments still ran Europe. If the church ran Europe then why would all the countries be fighting each other to the death? Why would Catholic Church's be burned and pillaged by other countries that you say the Church controlled? Christianity was used by the Governments of Europe as such the church played a big role, but the church did not directly control Europe.
You could argue that today the Church controls the west. I mean the Governments of western countries all use Christianity to control their people. They all use it to justify actions and to ratify laws. But if the Church suddenly called for war on the US would that really happen?
But the Government was not Christian anymore then the US Government is today.
Ok, this just shows you have no ideea what you're talking about.
The same way Communist Governments use Atheism to manipulate theirs.
How can yoiu use atheism to manipulate people? If you wanna know why communists disliked religion, read some Marx.
Lets see have you ever read Richard Dawkins work? It is all using Atheism to manipulate people. In fact he pushes extremist ideology that the worlds religions should be wiped out. He uses scientific theology to incite hatred and promote hostile action against religions. In fact his material has been used by extremists to condone violence against religios people world wide. Just look at some of the crap Atheists post online and you'll see this influence!
They used Christianity to mobalize their people to defend Europe from the Muslim armies that were advancing.
The Crusades were not reactive. And the Crusaders looted Constantinopole.
How do you figure the Crusades were not reactive? I guess the Byzantine Empire just decided to contact the Catholic Church and the rest of Europe including enemies and beg for them to come. All while not being under any threat of attack and having no reason to start a war. The Crusades were entirely reactive they would never have occurred if Muslim forces weren't threatening to invade and acting on threats to do so against Christian nations. It was entirely political and military provoked.
Also so Crusaders (Decendants of Rome and the Holy Roman Empire) Looted one of their former capitals. It was there damn city to begin with. It had been ceased in war from them and they were simply taking it back. Its like if Mexico invaded the US and took over Washington DC, then years later the remaining US territories come together and cease Washington DC back. Well if they loot their own city so be it. Today we allow the native American's to loot our forests and cities legally. People think Palestinians have the right to return to Israel and loot it and take what ever they want and do what ever they want because it was originally their land. Other countries commonly take back their old territories and loot them.
This is no different!
The torture you mention is totally immoral in every sense of the word both Biblical and otherwise.
It's really not immoral, from the POV of certain christian 'thinkers'.
The slaughtering of Protestants and everyone who disagreed with you also was immoral.
There goes your 'christianity unites people' argument.
Christianity does Unite People. The Middle Ages church could hardly be considered Christian. The New Testiment is the basis for all Christianity. if an action does not have the support of the New Testiment it is not Christian. Sorry for all the Roman Catholics out there but the actions of the Catholic Church at many times in history simply is not Christian. If what you believe isn't the teachings of Jesus Christ and the New Testiment then it is not Christian in any way.
You have mentioned Catholics make up the majority of Christian's. However who says all those polled are Christian at all? A basic understanding of Christianity would show you that your not Christian just because you say you are. You have to actually follow Jesus's teachings.
Mathew 7:16 "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" While you can't get to heaven with soully your actions. Actions do indicate whether you are actually a Christian or not. A Christian will slip up from time to time but if they do not over all try to follow the teachings of Christ. They are not Christian.
The whole legal system is built upon the New Testiment and Old Testiment.
I think you should read up on this matter more.
Umm yah I don't have too. I know my countries history and the basis behind the legal system in many of the major European countries. A few laws and such were taken from the early Roman empire however the majority of democracy and the human rights laws we have today came from the later Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire and then other Christian institutions. Many other countries implemented similar laws and the basis of almost all western law is in some way linked directly to the Bible or falls in line with the Bible's teachings.
Of course when I talk I am refering to the Western Legal system, but Christianity did influence other legal systems around the globe as well.
What about Human Rights if you take religion out of the picture they wouldn't exist. In fact murder would have no actual basis for being legal I mean obviously the stronger human killed the weaker human to survive. If all humans are animals as is a given if all religion were thrown out of law then theft and murder and such would be perfectly justifiable.
And again, you don't know what you're talking about.
Explain how without any kind of religion what so ever our current legal system could possibly exist? On the basic principals of Natural Selection and Evolution without the interference of any religion what so ever how could our current human rights laws get created?
The best explanation I have heard from an Atheist is that eventually a leader would come out of a group of people. Seeking to create stability and have an empire he would begin to create laws that would govern the land. However without the formation of any religion how could these laws be enacted? What the guy would say "Because I said so" and why would anybody listen to that guy? Of course some of his followers would be bound to recognize him as a diety. Fact is eventually religion would be required to produce any kind of stability.
In fact even today even if the whole world knew of natural selection and evolution and the earth began advanced and all humans were aware of all the latest science and had no knowledge of religion. They would be incapable of producing the human rights legislation we currently have. Natural Selection does not promote human rights or equality in any way and the Evolution Theory proposes we are all animals. Without anything to suggest we are superior to animals or should be treated as such it would be impossible to come up with the legislation we currently have.
Now an evolutionist might say "Well we are verbal and more intelligent" Is that so? Well according to science Dolphins and Guerrilla's are almost as intelligent , in fact dogs are capable of doing things that even the best pieces of technology today can't such as sniffing out cancer etc...etc... So how would you argue without any form of religion that Humans are superior and should be treated as equals?
How would you argue against Natural Selection without any religious beliefs? Natural Selection and equality don't mix. The basic's of evolutionary theology do not promote human rights.
How on earth could Atheism without any influence of religion create the legal system we have today?
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