Poll: Israel or Palestine?

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badgenome said:

superchunk said:

badgenome said:

sapphi_snake said:

I must've misunderstood your post.

And regardign C, hey, they left, it's no longer theirs anymore. The Jews who currently live in Israel came from Europe a couple of decades ago. Palestinians have been living there for centuries. They're more natives to the land than the Jews are. Sucks for the Jews that they're trying to perform ethnic cleansing in the 21st century.

 

They didn't "leave", they were driven out. But never entirely, as there has always remained a Jewish minority, and since the ruling Ottomans allowed more Jews to return to Palestine and purchase land there over the centuries, the idea that their presence is somehow illegitimate seems dodgy at best and repugnant at worst.

1) Nearly all of Jews in Israel in 1948 came from Europe. Even now there is a very high number of 1st year or 2nd gen Jews living there.

2) The Mosque on the Temple Mount has stood longer than both Temples combined. That in itself says a lot for whom has lived in that land the longest.

3) The Jews only legally owned about 60% of the land given to them in 1948 and of course have stolen far more sense then and continue to do so now.

When you look at things with out a biased history lesson you'll see that Israel's creation was the result of racism, European colonialism, and simply that the European Jews invading were far more powerful than the native Arabs who had been under Turkish/Ottoman control. Additionally, the British even broke their WWII agreement with Arabs over Palestine. THey had agreed that if the Arabs work with them to defeat Ottoman's then any area with an Arab majority would fall to Arab control. Palestine is the only area this did not happen... even though in 1945 Arabs (Muslim and Christian) were still over 85% of the population. Hell, in 1948 Arabs were still 60% of the population.... after all the illegal immigration.

Certainly, the whole situation says a lot about the inherent problems with mass immigration and multiculturalism, although that's not the lesson anyone ever seems to draw from it. But I can't say I understand your logic.

Firstly, I'm not sure why itreally matters, but history shows that the Jews have undeniably been there far longer than anyone else since they were never completely eradicated to begin with, even if they were a minority for much of the time. Leaving that aside, are you saying that when the Arabs rioted against their Jewish neighbors and tried to give them the bum rush, it was totally cool because the Jews only owned 60% of their land anyway? That seems like a rather peculiar justification, the kind you usually get when someone is clutching at straws for a flimsy moral reason when they've actually chosen sides out of a more tribalistic loyalty to one particular side. I somehow don't think you'd be so sympathetic to the Swedes or the French if they decided they've had their fill of their uppity Muslim immigrants and moved to reclaim Malmö or the banlieues by force, after all.

"history shows that the Jews have undeniably been there far longer than anyone else since they were never completely eradicated to begin with, even if they were a minority for much of the time."

Sure, they were less than 10% of the population for over a thousand years. Guess that means something....

"Leaving that aside, are you saying that when the Arabs rioted against their Jewish neighbors and tried to give them the bum rush, it was totally cool because the Jews only owned 60% of their land anyway?"

The 60% figure I was quoting was 60% of the land being given to them in 1948.. not 60% of the total of the Palestine Mandate. So basically it was only about 25% of the total land... and yes the 1948-49 war was justified. The Arabs were the majority and native population. The Jews there at that time had by a greater majority of their populace, not even been born there (nearly all Europeans). The Arabas for over 20 years had been promised full control of the territory because they had supported the British vs the Ottomans. The Arabs were being robbed by the West for a new Jewish/European colony. The Stern-Gang and Irgun terrorist Jewish organizations (first terrorist groups in the region) had been culling the herd already against both British groups as well as the mass murder of an entire village prior to the war (deir yassin). Additionally, this propoganda that the 48-49 war was a bum rush is crazy. The Arab groups were not united in cause, out-manned, out-gunned, out-trained... it was basically a western european modern military fighting a few smaller, weaker, rag-tag groups with aging weapons... and that was the best odds Arabs every had. lol.

Your final comment/example make no sense what-so-ever in relation to this conflict.

Tossing all that out the window and the current solution should be a removal of all Israelis to the Green Line and full normal relations given among all nations in the region. However, that won't happen as Israelis want to continue their march of settlers across the West Bank.