Putin wants return of Soviet Union, but not Soviet Union!

[Joelcool7]

Branko2166 said:

starcraft said:

NotStan said:
I liked the premise of Soviet Union, what I didn't like is what it turned out to be after years of dictator after dictator, and constant global squabbling between the west and the east.

I like Putin, he's a man with a vision, however he's going to have a hard time enforcing that vision in a good way, and there's always a chance that if he steps down then his predecessor will be of a different mind.

Your choice of verb there is the exact reason why Putin isn't good for the rest of the world at large PERIOD or Russia in the medium and long term.

I disagree with him being bad for Russia and all you have to do is look at Russia when he came into power and now. There seems to be a very misguided view which is held by many that somehow democracy solves everything and that democratic nations are natural allies. A democratic Russia will still pursue it's own national interests as all other countries do and should.

The west had a 10 year window of oppurtunity from the dissolution of the Soviet Union to truly engage and embrace Russia while it was weak. Instead, the US continued expanding NATO and even started accepting former Soviet republics into the military alliance. All this served to reinforce Russia's greatest fears. That the west was talking about engagement while it was more than happy to box Russia in. This situation allowed the hardliners including Putin to come to power.

The tipping point was the Georgia conflict where Russia drew a line in the sand and started to push back. Instead of realising the limits of its power and working with other great powers the US seems intent on removing as many unfriendly governments and starting more wars. Sadly it appears that we are headed for a major showdown in the Middle East involviong the great powers and Iran/Syria/Lebannon/Israel. I hope I'm wrong though.

The biggest problem is a country doesn't gain recognition and acceptance just by accepting democracy. The USSR's collapse did not entirely remove the anti-American anti-democratic sentiment from Russia. According to all the documentaries and sites and books I have read on the subject ex-KGB and ex-Soviet political leaders were involved in this democratic Russia. These same Russian's who were extremely anti-American and anti-democratic only a short time ago.

Also even during this ten year period you speak of spies from Russia were captured in Canada and other western democracies showing that the Russian Government was serious about peace and reconciliation. The US and its allies moved cautiously forward but did not embrace Russia immediatly and always remained suspicious of Russia's intentions. Unfortunately Russia did not prove it had good intentions in its democratic movement. Your talk of self interest and such is not going to bring in western allies, even though the US is very self centered the Nato allies and European allies look out for one another's interests and Moscow was not looking out for anyone interests but their own.

Both sides distrusted each other and Putin was elected and showed the West that they could not further any relationship with Russia in a manor that benefits the west or democratic countries. Under Putin thousands of journalists mysteriously have disappeared since he became President. When a journalist gets to critical or begins investigating the Government they often just disappear or are found murdered. These murders are rarely solved and the Government doesn't seem that interested in stopping them if they aren't responsible for them directly. Two prominent people who opposed Putin both were killed by radiation poisoning Roman Tsepov who is believed to have been corrupt and extorted protection money using his security agency. It is said while he was good friends with Putin he did end up butting heads over corruption and such. He mysteriously died of radiation poisoning the culprit was never found or arrested. Then of course we have Alexander Litvinenko who died shortly after he began to talk to other countries. When western countries tried to investigate at first the Russia Government co-operated however when the investigation lead back to Russia and the fact that a Russian had to have been responsible suddenly they stopped co-operating and turned hostile.

Today Russia supports and has since the fall of the USSR several non-democratic countries. Always bashing heads with western democracies, the cold war never really ended Russia continued to invest in countries that were undemocratic and were anti-western. That never changed and under Putin Russia has become more and more hostile and provocative against democratic countries and more and more supportive and friendly with dictatorships and allowing and enabling genocides and human rights abuses alongside China.

Its true that the US kept expanding Nato despite the USSR collapse. But would they have done so if Russia had actually shown their intentions and proved they were seriously moving to democracy? If Russia had stopped supporting communist governments and not provided weapons and support to enemies of western democracies. If Russia had pulled its spies and joined military agreements and other agreements with western countries the out come would have been far different.

Look at Japan and Germany both were America's biggest enemies. However after defeat they embraced Democracy and America and look at them today they are beacons of democracy and loved by the west. They have little to fear other then China or other dictator based states Russia currently supports.

As for Georgia and such, Russia sent Peace keepers to a country which hates Russia officially. They then used peace keeping as a pretext to split the country up and devastate the Government who was found to be in legal right to the territories which Russia annexed. Its like say their was a rebellion in India a rebel group in Northern India rebelled against the Government. Pakistan then sends peace keepers into India to keep the peace between the pro-Indian and anti-indian forces. The Pakistani Government then decides when India tries to recapture their soil and defeat the rebel group, that Pakistan should retaliate and recognizes the secession of Northern India while the rest of the international community disagrees. Then Pakistan unleashes hell on India in the name of protecting those rebels.

An enemy state should never peace keep in another enemy state. The peace keepers should always be neutral and not have a vested interest in the success of any of the rival groups. It also didn't help that Georgia was seeking Nato membership this peace keeping operation was an intimidation practice and excersize of military authority.

Fact is all those countries that joined Nato and are moving towards western alliances. Those countries either fear, resent or just don't care about Russia. That isn't the Wests fault it is entirely Russia's their actions past a present drove their allies to abandon them. The use of fear and blackmail drive resentment in Russia's former states. Such as Russia's iron grip on the oil and energy sectors which they often use as a negotiating tool. The constant threats of military action, Russia tries to rule by fear at least under Putin and did so under the USSR that brief ten years was not long enough nor did Russia put fourth enough evidence that they truly changed to build a relationship with the West.

Of course I do obviously have a bias towards western democracy. However being a member of the Conservative Party having talked via email with our Prime Minister and being nominated to Parliament in my province. I can honestly say that Canada at least along with several western countries were not convinced Russia turned a leaf, fact is Russia didn't do much to prove that the change was really deep or serious. Like I said spies were still operating in Canada and the US, the Russian Government continued to supply weapons and funding to enemies of Nato and western countries. Russia maintained very strong ties with all their communist partners, many USSR political and military leaders remained in Government roles. Its very hard to argue that the West shouldn't have been skeptical and concerned or defensive.

Russia's intentions were not entirely clear, today with Putin many would argue the West made the right choice by not letting our guard down and maintaining a suspicion of Russia. As you said Russia cares only about itself and that alone makes them a very bad candidate for a partner. Canada and other western countries want a partner that has an interest in seeing them succeed and promoting their values. Nobody wants to partner with a country that doesn't care or at least do a good job pretending to care about its partners!