Joelcool7 said:
Badassbab said:
Joelcool7 said:
So I have been reading a lot about Turkey's recent statements escalating tensions between Israel and the Middle East and threatening global stability. Nato then issued a statement saying the alliance could not take any action to get involved to stabilize the middle east if Turkey did do something because Turkey is an alliance member and any actions of the alliance need to be agreed upon by all of its members.
But this worries me because Israel is one of Nato's biggest allies. Most of Nato's countries have strategic military alliances with Israel and if Turkey knowingly destabilized the region and took a militarily aggressive stance against Israel they would be playing ally against ally.
I find it hard to see how this could be tolerable to Nato, a Nato member openly threatening other Nato members allies. The US and UK for example have alliances with Israel and if Israel was invaded I am pretty sure both countries would be required to respond in some fashion.
So whats Nato to do? If Turkey attacked Israel , the US and UK would be expected to come to Israel's aid against Turkey. But Turkey is a Nato ally.
So the question that needs to be answered is, should Nato members be allowed to attack each others allies? If Nato members can attack each others allies how are they supposed to respond? I mean can the US retaliate against Turkey for an attack on Israel an ally of the US? Vice versa if the US or another Nato member attacks a Turkish ally, whats Turkey supposed to do?
I think its a pretty dangerous game to start threatening each others allies. I think Nato should address this immediately as if Nato starts fighting within they will not be a global force any longer.
In my honest opinion Nato should be working big time to reign in Turkey, if that doesn't work it should move to prevent Turkey from attacking Israel any means necessary. Then if Turkey attacks its membership from Nato should be dropped. You can't have Nato allies fighting Nato members or Nato members turning on each other to protect their other allies.
So what do you think, should Nato allow its members to attack each others allies? How would you get out of such a mess and prevent in-fighting
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Turkey won't attack Israel, nor are they threatening to destabilize the ME, I have absolutely no idea where you got that from. Over the last decade there has been two countries which have caused destabilization in the ME and that is Israel and the US. All Turkey asked for was an apology for killing their civilians and that they will provide escorts to protect their ships in international waters to prevent their ships being attacked again. Also they said they will take Israel to court over the Gaza blockade (that's not exatly resorting to violence).
And why equate ME stability with Global stability? China and Russia won't exactly start a fight with the US over a squabble between Israel and Turkey.
You've got to look at the political side of things and not just from a mass media perspective. Erodgan is extremely popular in the ME right now. Far more than their own leaders or any Western head of state. He's taking advantage of the Arab Spring and spreading Turkish influence (Turkey did use to rule much of the ME for hundreds of years as the Ottoman Empire). Turkey is doing quite well economically (they were never allowed into the EU...and it's serving them well right now) and one way of appealing to the Arab masses and getting substantial Turkish business into Arab nations is by picking on Israel. Turkey is a strong ally of the US and has agreed to host the ABM radar (which is blatently aimed at Russia) so US influence there is weak and US influence in the ME is on the wane as well. Erodgan is just playing his cards quite well from a Turksih pov.
But it's not all doom and gloom for Israeli/Turkish relationships. Turkey wants Israeli military tech. All Israel has to do is vote the hawkish and franky inept Netanyahu out of office, vote for a more pragmatic PM and it will go back to the way things used to be.
Question:- If Israel is attacked why do you think the UK will get involved militarily? There are no defense treaties along those lines at all. And where did you get your information about defense alliances between most Nato members and Israel? I don't think so. The US might unilaterally decide to defend Israel if it's going to lose a war but there are no treaties.
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Well considering that The United States, Poland and Greece all have military alliances with Israel. Not to mention NATO itself according to leaked wires has been considering Israeli membership. The United Kingdom itself has in the past intervened in affairs of Israel, while not having a defense alliance per say I doubt they wouldn't get involved if a conflict were to break out.
As for destabilizing the middle east, yah sending warships to escort vessels in clear violation of a UN recognized blockade would most definitely destabilize the region. The United Nation's declared that Israel has the right to have that blockade while some UN panels suggest it is illegal, the official report and investigation into the breach says otherwise. Source.
Also Turkey just started talking with Egypt about a military treaty, is it a coincidence that this happens just as Israel and Egypt fall out? Rather then Turkey trying to calm down the situation in the Middle East they are provoking it and encouraging confrontation.
Whats next Turkey is going to send troops to Egypt and warships off the coast of Gaza/Israel. If that isn't military provocation I don't know what is.
Yes Turkey is provoking instability in the Middle East, rather then taking Israel to court over a blockade of the Gaza strip they should be encouraging dialogue to end it. Instead of sending warships and signing military pacts with countries who clearly are confrontational with Israel maybe they should try and help the two countries settle their disputes.
Turkey is turning up the heat in the middle east when they should be trying to cool it down. The Middle East doesn't need another war, it doesn't need more parties fighting each other. It needs dialogue and countries willing to try and make peace, I think its foolish to jeopardize stability for the sake of a few criminals.
Also global stability your right Russia won't attack the US or something over a confrontation between Israel and Turkey. But Israel has a lot of allies within Nato as well as other countries like India. Also Nato itself is considering a formal alliance with Israel which would mean Turkey is attacking another Nato member.
Turkey is being very confrontational, if they do pursue military action against Israel there should be repercussions. Nato allies should not attack each others allies.
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Hold on this is getting a little confusing. What you're saying is that when a country signs military defense deals with another country and neither country is called Israel then it's called destabilizing? And when a country buys Israeli weapons it's called a military alliance? I don't think you're using the correct terminologies to advance your argument.
Sending warships to escort your own ships in international waters doesn't violate anything. And the UN report is not binding nor a resolution been passsed to call the blockade of Gaza legal so Turkey wouldn't be breaking any international law.
I don't think you've been following Turkish diplomacy until very recently for if you did then you'd know full well Turkey has for years been trying to bring opposing parties to the table for negotiations. And as it stands Israel is not a NATO member so if in your fantasy world Turkey did attack Israel, NATO are under no obligation to defend Israel. If Israel was to apply for NATO membership it could take a while for it to become a fully fledged member, these things don't happen over night by which time Israel-Turkish relations may have mended by then.
Like I said look at the politics being played out. How many ships from the Freedom Flotilla 2 sailed from Turkish ports? ZERO. Turkey wouldn't allow any. No Turkish ships going to Gaza, no Turkish warships required to escort anything. I ask you to re-consider your hasty remarks such as Turkish troops in Egypt and Turkish warships off the coast of Gaza (there are Israeli patrol boats off the coast of Gaza harrassing Gaza fishermen). Turkey isn't a superpower.
It's very rich of you to preach peace in the ME, the countries that have started wars over the last decade and cause the most amount of death, destruction and destabilization have been either Israel or NATO countries all the while under very dubious pretexts that collapse under not so close scrutiny.
