| Sri Lumpa said: |
"But he is still the one who chose to setup the system so that people who do not believe are punished in a similar manner to those that are evil"
Remember the premise that those who don`t believe in Him reject that He is the truth, life and the path. Which is to say that people reject the fabric of all existence, the Being itself. He said to Moses: "I am He who is". Do you know what it means to reject something like this? There´s nothing bigger or close a thing to reject after this.
This means you can reject Him in various ways, but it´s still rejection. We feel it`s ok to have evil in our lives - yin and yang - but God is perfect, holy and pure. There`s no room for evil.
From that you can go to moraility. God`s morality is perfect as He is. We just can`t imagine or feel because we aren`t God. There is a difference and it´s really, really substantial. You just don`t agree or accept that either that difference exists or it has no such impact.
What seems to us immoral, doesn`t need - and isn´t - to be necessarily immoral to God.
"something is immoral then it is immoral even when done by god otherwise moral and immoral have no meaning."
How can you, who doesn`t know God´s being, know and define what is moral and immoral? He created that, not us. We have a very limited understanding on that.
I do consider everything done by God, but i do it according to what God is. That`s like me deciding what is the universe in every sense of the word... me who was also created like the universe.
I am able to know what God is? No. As Jesus said: only the father knows the sun and only the sun knows the father". If you think i should only believe based on what has been told is true. But that`s what makes all the difference, isn`t it? Besides what God and Jesus told us and what we experience through our faith, there are no other ways.
" like saying that white people can murder black people marrying white people to conserve the purity of white people"
A sentence that obeys the same criteria of thought doesn`t make it the same in real life.
It changed the situation in the same way as knowing why God does what He does would change the situation for God aswell.
"god should have explained in it why such actions where not immoral"
Haven´t read the Bible so i can`t say exactly if there`s something there that explains it in a way or another. Still, the answer can be found through what God is: holy and giver and taker of life.
"This is a false premise as by telling them of god you are choosing their path"
In no way is that what happens. So, i put them in front of a choice and that`s the same as choosing their path? Either they have a choice or they don`t. Because if they do, it`s not me choosing a path.
Everything that comes out of God is good. I already said this before.
"since what may be known about god is plain to them"
What may be known could also incorporate our limitations, that being, limitations of knowing God. The proof is that no one but Jesus and God know one other in a perfect way - as i said above.
"Putting your fears away and giving a god a chance proves that you believe he exists"
What if what exists is doubt? Belief is a certainty that not everyone possesses. There is something, but if it would be belief than no one would have to open their hearts in the way i speak of.
That`s why people talk about a leap of faith: it´s not faith like belief, trust and love, but is a will of some sort that pushes them to give it a try. Their conception of God helps them to turn to God in a way they wouldn`t otherwise.
"That doesn't answer the question of when it was made public"
That answer i am not able to respond with clarity.
Still, Mary revealed herself to those who couldn`t see her by doing the miracle. The events (told to be part of what mary told lucia) about Russia were told before they happened. Even if i can`t show exactly when it was made public, why would it not be true or proof when the rest was known?
What is not clear is just a part of the whole apparition.
"you insist on putting the start of the war before the war started"
Mary also said that WW1 would end when she appeared in 1917. Did she say when? No, she didn`t, yet she was right.
She said a new would start in the reign of Pius XI and the fact is, the new war had it`s start in 1938, even if the actual war didn`t took place years after.
No will will deny that Hitler and his desires were what lead up to a new war - and Mary knew this the same way she knew about what would happen to Russia and the pope.
Will start isn`t the same as break-out.
The role of the church since the very beggining was probably less than good (several priests, i believe, even tried make Lucia take back her words). Actually, long before it happened (1925-1929) Mary warned Lucia that whe wasn`t listened to and that it would be too late., but still her Heart would triumph.
"She spoke in the context of Russia spreading her errors,"
Even if it`s not there, there`s no reason to believe that those aren`t included. Jews or not.
"It is the juxtaposition of telling Lucia and not telling the pope that I find illogical."
I did understand it. I also said that no one understands God absolutely, so we may see some things that seem odd, but doesn`t mean it`s illogical. It`s just that we don`t know.
For all i have read, the pope never knew by revelation, none of them.
There have been several apparitions and i don`t remember reading anything about the pope knowing about it.
God has its way of doing things.
"Maybe but there still hasn't been peace since said consecration"
True if we try to see the end of all evil. Call it a return to a normal state.
"Except that the cold war ended more than half a decade after the consecration"
That was my mistake. For some reason i thought it ended way sooner.
The worse war did end and the mistakes of Russia saw an end.
"That letter concerned the third secret whereas the secret about Russia was the second secret."
No. The 1st secret is the vision of hell. The 2nd was about the devotion to the Immaculate heart of Mart and the third was about Russia.
"I don't automatically give forgiveness to people because they need to ask for it"
Actually, that`s something Jesus tells us to do even if the person doesn`t ask for it. Forgive to be forgiven has no restraints. In the same way, Jesus forgave even if people didn`t ask for it, He opened the way.
You are in harmony but you are a case. What i meant is that people who are able to forgive despite the other one asking or not gives the one who forgave a sense of freedom has he is no longer stranded by anger, hate, etc.
"human sacrifice"
You are talking about Jesus, right?
When you break a window, you ask for forgiveness and pay the reparation or just say you are sorry? Not only repent is needed but also reparation, that`s why He sacrificided His son.
He made you unable to fulfill His law is only a part of what happens. Yes, you are not perfect and God knows that. He doesn`t ask for perfection. What He wants is that when you choose to apply your freedom the wrong way you repent what you did.
"So, you don`t want ME, so i`ll get you tortured"
I`ll read it as your personnal interpretation of what happens. In life and after it, you get and live by the path you choose. Punishing us doesn`t mean He doesn`t care or wouldn`t wish for it to be different.
"you know why you are punished"
Just because God doesn`t explicitly tell you in your faith doesn´t mean you don`t have what it takes to find the true meaning of your actions or that He doesn`t try to guide you to the good path.
When i do something bad, even if i am not punished, doesn`t mean i don`t know what i did was wrong.
"people Jesus met after being arrested which I pointed out doesn't fit as those were not prophets."
Actually, from what i read prophets were also considered teachers in the sense they spread and explained the word of God - which priests do.
"It is even more odious when he is perfectly willing to reduce that sentence from an eternity in hell for one's lifetime to just 3 days for the combined lifetimes of all those who accepted Jesus."
I honestly don`t know what you are talking about. Are you talking about the time where Jesus descended into Hades or House of the dead? Does this quote help? "The rich man was on the torment side and Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom, which was called "paradise" by the LORD Jesus Christ when He addressed the thief who found faith the day Jesus was crucified"
"not exactly the selfless sacrifice that christianity claims it to be."
Who died for the sins of mankind if not Jesus? Who was the sacrificed lamb? Don`t those who die in Christ, ressurrect with Him? Opening the path through love was His mission.
"but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus, that spirit is not from God."
What is acknowlidging but to live it?
Actually, the quote, if i am not confusing with another one, went on saying that the false profhets will also attempt to deviate you from God.
"This also undermines Lucia Santos' prophecy as it recognises that false prophets can perform great miracles so if she is a false prophets"
She didn`t perform miracles... i think. I can only remembering Jacinta doing it. Still, undermines only to those who wish to see it that way. John Paul II is credited to being able to perform miracles. Is he undermined? Not to me.
The false prophets also try to keep you away from God. Lucia did the opposite of a false prophet.
They believed Paul because of what He did and what he spoke of God. I might be forgetting, but i don`t remember reading the one making miracles.
All, in what is done, is what will make you a honest or a false prophet.
"which shows that god puts faith front and center and you can live a life of immorality as long as in your heart you are really sorry that you did."
Now you are mixing things. God wants faith, but He wants it true and burning in your heart. People make mistakes and ask for honest forgiveness and therefore get it.
Which means, your bad ways can be corrected by accepting God in your heart once again. Faith necessarily means, morality, Inversion doesn`t add faith. So in this sense it can`t wash away anything, since God isn`t in your heart.
"then that standard is meaningless"
A possibility looked only by reason is no different than another, and another - given the same context. It`s not meaningless because there is a basis for it, that is God is good - the truth, path and life.
If you assume this, than the bad fruit applies to everything but Him.
God and Allah are the same. It`s the same God.
"And what exactly were Job's children punished for"
That`s not the context of the Book of Job, at least for what i read.
Killed, yes. Punished? Not told.
What bet? Does it say it`s a bet or are you reading it like a bet? Do you think what happened to Job is in any way different from us or even Jesus?
There was no bet. What the book shows is how the devil will try to separate us from God. Does God allow? Yes. Why? Because you are free even to deny Him.
Making a bet really means not caring. And why would even God make a bet with satan? Prove what point? Who was ever in control?
The only point that is proven in this book is that people who hold on to their faith are rewarded and that the devil has no real power over no one.
"God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden"
So, you don`t question why He has mercy in one but not another? Aren`t those who live in sin cast in hell and those who live in faith sent to heaven? Why do you think God decided to have no mercy on them? It also goes back to that idea where sinners are left on their path of sin.
"Our goodness comes from God"
If you don`t believe i believe.
Not being a war doesn`t mean we a re fully exploiting goodness. Goodness is not lack of evil. It exists per se.
What society doesn`t have evil?
"If he really was the truth he would say something like "I am the truth but do not take my word for it but search for the truth yourself for in doing so you will find me". "
That wouldn`t change a single thing. He doesn`t need to say it when God already gave you free will and freedom do choose.
And Jesus didn`t just rely on words, He showed it through actions like miracles and the transfiguration. And in the case of marian apparitions He was there aswell and revealed Himself.
"you look for it and find it you do not need to have faith in the truth for you then have evidence of it"
But you have your proof don`t you? isn`t the bible proof? Aren`t miracles proof? Aren`t apparitions proof? Are do you expect, being finite, able to find an absolute proof? Could you even tell that it was the absolute proof?
"That's not seeking truth but seeking belief"
Belief happens when people achieve something. People all over the world seek for the truth. Some find it, some don`t. Those who do, gain faith because they opened their hearts first and tried to find something that would answer their questions.
Even if my quote spoke essencially of belief, it still applies - more when you believe in Jesus when He says He is the truth.
"What is silenced in those cases are justice, morality and compassion, things that your god claims to be full of but seems always to come up short with, except for his followers."
Love is given to those who want it and keep it in their hearts, making them worthy. Don`t ask for what your heart has no place for.
"I wish nobody would let their religion shut their mind off and rationally assess the moral worth of their religion"
Don`t take this the wrong way but, i too could wish for people who don`t know/or are finite to not judge God`s perfection or just reasons, since their minds can`t read other`s minds nor begin to understand something infinite. More, when the birth and sacrifice of Jesus point to a loving God that also punishes you not for the sake of punishing but for you to learn. Love one another like He loved us would do wonders to the world.
Ok, i understand.
I too wish you can one day realise that a lot comes from actually knowing (or at least starting with giving the benefit of doubt), like the chained man in the allegory of the cave. He was only looking at what he had in front of him... guess he was wrong. Not everything is what it seems. You want to find some reasons, but with God you care not. Don`t even accept the existing difference.
Our actions are the same as Adam and Eve`s: we choose as they chose.
"Love one another like I loved you" and i am the truth, life and the path, speaks for what you can understand and what you can`t understand.
